Episode 250: Safwat Marzouk - The Bizarre Book of Ezekiel
In this episode of The Bible for Normal People, Safwat Marzouk joins Pete and Jared for a deep dive into the book of Ezekiel, exploring its historical and geopolitical context, the dual callings of Ezekiel as priest and prophet, and how holiness and justice aren’t at odds when it comes to faithfulness as God’s people. Join them as they ask the following questions:
In what historical and geopolitical context is the author of Ezekiel writing?
Who is Ezekiel?
What kind of message is Ezekiel trying to convey through the book?
What details should readers know about the exile and how that context affects the writing in Ezekiel?
Was Ezekiel deported?
How did we get the book of Ezekiel that we have?
What's the process by which these books get written down or recorded in such a tumultuous time?
How does Ezekiel’s background training as a priest impact the book itself?
What kind of theology, or thinking about God, do we find in Ezekiel? How can it challenge us to think differently about God?
Where do we find harsh language in Ezekiel and why would the author have included that?
How does Ezekiel use the metaphor of marriage to convey judgment upon Israel?
Where do we see the book of Ezekiel tie together holiness and justice?
Tweetables
Pithy, shareable, sometimes-less-than-280-character statements from the episode you can share.
If I were to choose just one word to tell people about the book of Ezekiel, it's a bizarre book. It's full of images, visions, metaphors, symbolic actions done by the prophet to communicate a message, that made people wonder what the prophet was up to or trying to do. — @safwatmarzouk
There is a lot of agony and suffering and pain that is also communicated in the book [of Ezekiel]—pretty much all over its pages. — @safwatmarzouk
Like all the other prophets, Ezekiel pronounces a message of judgment, where he is trying to understand what this crisis of exile, the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, means for the people of God. But also like other prophets, judgment is not separated from God's work of salvation. — @safwatmarzouk
The book [of Ezekiel] also leads us to understand that ultimately what God is up to in the world is restoration and healing and change and salvation and transformation. — @safwatmarzouk
[Ezekiel] is a priest, he's a prophet, and those two elements and these two aspects of calling shaped his message and how he engaged in that moment in the history of Judah. — @safwatmarzouk
This is one of the beautiful things about biblical traditions, is how they actually respond and engage in diverse ways with what's happening around them. They were not isolated from the politics, the economics, the world events that were shaping them. — @safwatmarzouk
We're talking about a time of turmoil in which Judah needed to make some political decisions that would reflect some of its religious and also theological understandings of their place and God's place in the world. — @safwatmarzouk
There are strong opinions in the circles of Ezekiel scholarship, that Ezekiel is one of the exceptions to these gaps between oral and written traditions, that it's likely that Ezekiel could be a writing prophet from the get-go as well. — @safwatmarzouk
This is one crucial aspect about Ezekiel's priestly theology: that he frames both judgment and salvation in terms of the divine presence, and in terms of the centrality of the temple. — @safwatmarzouk
For the people of God, to be holy is for them to do justice, is for them to take the side of the oppressed, to care for those who have been impoverished by the economic and the political systems around us. — @safwatmarzouk
As much as we try to understand Ezekiel in his historical context, some of those texts still perpetuate theologies or worldviews, that I think, to be faithful to the fuller witness of Scripture, we need to dismantle—especially the sexualized violence ones. — @safwatmarzouk
What God is calling us to be in the world as a faith community is to be, in some ways, like God—holy in our commitment to those who have been oppressed and marginalized. — @safwatmarzouk
The same God who proclaimed these words of judgment is still active in the life of the people to bring healing and transformation and restoration. — @safwatmarzouk
God [gives] these dead bones power and new life and a new identity, so that they would be able to live into this holiness, into this justice-making where they care for and tend to the poor, and the powerless, and the migrant, the orphan, the sojourner, and those who have lost hope. — @safwatmarzouk
Mentioned in This Episode
More about Safwat Marzouk
Egypt as a Monster in the Book of Ezekiel by Safwat Marzouk
Intercultural Church: A Biblical Vision for an Age of Migrationby Safwat Marzouk
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Pete
You're listening to the Bible for Normal People, the only God-ordained podcast on the internet. I'm Pete Enns.
Jared
And I'm Jared Byas.
Intro
[Intro music begins]
Pete
Hey everybody! On today's episode of the Bible for Normal People, we're talking about the bizarre book of Ezekiel with Safwat Marzouk.
Jared
Safwat is an associate professor of Old Testament at Union Presbyterian Seminary, as well as an ordained pastor. But interestingly—which is tied to what we talked about today—he's a Christian, Egyptian, and a migrant to the US and that added a particular flavor and perspective to the book of Ezekiel that I found fascinating and very helpful. He's written three books, including "Egypt as a Monster in the Book of Ezekiel," "A Commentary on Ezekiel” in the Arabic Contemporary Commentary, and "Intercultural Church: A Biblical Vision for an Age of Migration."
Pete
Yeah, we had a great conversation and can't wait for you to hear. So let's get into the episode.
Safwat
[Teaser clip of Safwat speaking plays over music] “One of the really interesting things about Ezekiel, where holiness, to be a holy people, is not separated from doing justice. And these two categories that, sometimes, because of our different theological backgrounds, we kind of pit them against each other, they are integrated in the prophetic work of Ezekiel. And sometimes to be honest, it makes me think that to be holy, as the people of God, is to actually do justice.”
[Music ends]
[Transitional music leads into the beginning of the episode]
Pete
Well Safwat, thank you for being on the podcast. It's great to have you here.
Safwat
Thank you, Pete, I look forward to our conversation!
Pete
Let's start with this, for someone who's never read the book of Ezekiel, how would you introduce them to it? Describe what that book is about.
Safwat
So, the book of Ezekiel is among the prophetic books in the Old Testament and if I were to choose just one word to tell people about the book of Ezekiel, it's a bizarre book. It's a book that is full of images, visions, metaphors, symbolic actions done by the prophet to communicate a message that made people wonder what the prophet was up to or trying to do. There is a chariot and cherubim, God appearing in a magnificent vision in Babylon, God leaves the temple, the temple is being rebuilt, there is a lot of agony and suffering and pain that is also communicated in the book pretty much all over its pages. It's a very complex book.
Ezekiel is a person who was in exile, maybe the closest image that we could think of—Ezekiel is like a forced migrant; someone for political and military invasion, found himself in a land that is not his land. And he was trying to figure out what is going on, and what God is up to in the world, how to make sense of this crisis. It's a very complex book that is emerging out of a very painful experience that the people of God faced during the Babylonian Empire. And like all the other prophets, Ezekiel pronounces a message of judgment, where he is trying to understand what this crisis of exile, the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple means for the people of God. But also like other prophets, judgment is not separated from God's work of salvation.
Pete
Mhmm.
Safwat
Judgment is part of the way God works salvation and transformation, and change. So judgment is not the last word in Ezekiel either. Where Ezekiel also proclaims a message of hope, transformation, and change and healing. One of the, obviously, very famous images that come from the book of Ezekiel is the revival of the dry bones. This is one of the very common and well-known passages from Ezekiel, which to be honest, it does capture what the book of Ezekiel is about. It is capturing a sense of death, a sense of destruction, a sense of hopelessness that the people are experiencing. But at the same time, it is also capturing God's spirit that moves the wind, that brings about life in the midst of death, and a prophetic word that offers a promise that death and hopelessness are not the final word. So even though the book is really bizarre, filled with obscure images, and quite often harsh language, the book also leads us to understand that ultimately what God is up to in the world is restoration and healing and change and salvation and transformation.
Pete
Do we know anything about Ezekiel himself?
Safwat
Yes! So, we know very well from his writing and the way he identifies himself in the book, that he kind of wears two hats. He was going to be a priest, operating in the temple of Jerusalem, and this actually explains the heavy priestly language that the prophet uses. He is centered around God's appearance and God's presence in the temple. There is heavy language about abomination, and defilement, and holiness, and cleanness, and uncleanness, so we know that he is heavily influenced by the priestly school, the priestly traditions, but at the same time, he then becomes a prophet. He's called by God in order to speak to the people of God, in the midst of this crisis of exile.
One of the really interesting things about Ezekiel that differentiates him from other prophets is that he was acting as a prophet outside of Judah. He was exiled himself, he was in Babylon. So when God calls Ezekiel into this prophetic ministry, he is outside of the land, he himself is experiencing that trauma of forced migration, he himself pretty much has lost something that he probably, you know, spent most of his life training for, to become a priest. And now he finds himself in this foreign land, in Babylon, called by God, in order to speak to the people of God, both in Babylon, and also in Jerusalem, at a time in which the people were facing an existential crisis that is the exile and the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. So he's a priest, he's a prophet, and those two elements and these two aspects of calling shaped his message and how he engaged in that moment in the history of Judah.
Jared
Can you paint a picture a little bit of the exile—and I think most of our listeners will know about the exile—but can you maybe specifically talk more about it in terms of Jerusalem and what's happening there? Because I think you raised a good point about, he's training to be a priest in Jerusalem, and then what precipitated the invasion into Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple? And, you know, what years are we talking about? And maybe just kind of paint a little bit of the geopolitical picture that Ezekiel is living in?
Safwat
Absolutely. I think for us to understand, I would say, not only Ezekiel, but a lot of the prophetic literature in the biblical traditions, is to actually try to understand the geopolitical circumstances that shaped the messages. This is one of the beautiful things about biblical traditions, is how they actually respond and engage in diverse ways with what's happening around them. They were not isolated from the politics, the economics, the world events that were shaping them. So we're talking about a time of turmoil in the history of Judah. The Assyrian Empire, which was dominant during the eighth century and early seventh century, has been defeated by the Babylonians, modern day Iraq. And the Babylonians now pretty much inherited the ancient Near East, and became the superpower.
But at the same time, Egypt, which is the southern neighbor of Judah, was starting to kind of reclaim some of its role and impact in the ancient Near East, to the point that Egypt tried to help Assyria against the Babylonians, which in itself, sets up Judah to be caught in the middle between the superpower Babylon, which is on the east, and then Egypt, which is the Southern-Western neighbor of Judah. And that time, we're talking about 609 BCE, Ezekiel starts to become a prophet around 593 BCE. This is the time when Judah and its kings, especially Zedekiah, had to make some choices: whether to accept the Babylonian hegemony, or to enter into political alliance with Egypt and other small nation-states, in the Levant against Babylon.
This political situation, being caught between the superpowers, for Ezekiel and for Jeremiah, if we also look at Jeremiah, it also reflects a theological question. Because for these prophets, if God is sovereign, and God uses this Babylonian power to bring judgment upon God's people, then entering a political alliance with Egypt or putting Judah’s trust in Egypt, it meant a covenantal rebellion against Yahweh, against the God of Israel, in some ways. So these political circumstances were reflecting for the prophets some of the theological debates that were happening and taking place within Judah itself. So we're talking about a time of turmoil in which Judah needed to make some political decisions that would reflect some of its religious and also theological understandings of their place and God's place in the world. And when Zedekiah made the choice to enter into a political alliance with Egypt, Babylon responded to that with a siege. And they besieged the city of Jerusalem to the point that obviously brought about famine and disease, and this is reflected all over the place in the book of Ezekiel, who talks about famine and starvation and suffering, and sword, and diseases that are bringing destruction to the people till 587 BCE when the Babylonians conquer Jerusalem, destroy the temple and its walls and take control of the city. And Ezekiel is acting as a prophet during this time. He has been warning the people that this is inevitable, it's coming, and now he, in some ways, works with the people through this crisis of the exile, forced migration, or imperial destruction of their homeland and the temple, that was an orienting compass to the people of God at that time.
Pete
So, Ezekiel, was he deported?
Safwat
Ezekiel was already deported before the destruction of the city.
Pete
Okay.
Safwat
He was deported 597 BCE, with other elite groups from Jerusalem.
Pete
Because those deportations had been happening before 587-586.
Safwat
Yes.
Pete
Right? So, it wasn't just all of a sudden, there was a decade or so, right, of these kinds of... The dismantling of Judah, I guess.
Safwat
Absolutely. And we hear from Ezekiel, where the elders who are already in exile, come to Ezekiel seeking maybe hopeful words, because the judgment for them, in some ways, had already happened. Maybe a change of course in history, we also read about it in Jeremiah, where Jeremiah pretty much tells those who are already in exile that they need to settle and live a normal life, sort of like lots of negotiations happening and going on, where the people who have experienced this forced migration already, even before 587 BCE, are trying to figure out the reality and how to respond to this crisis.
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Jared
That's kind of the historical reality of Ezekiel and in my mind, of course, growing up in my religious tradition, I sort of...I imagined Ezekiel in exile in Babylon writing these prophecies, like writing the book of Ezekiel down. It was a very—pretty much a modern Western idea of how these books get formed. Can you talk a little bit more about how the book that we have, Ezekiel, would have been developed based on the historical figure of Ezekiel, who's there prophesying during this time? What's the process by which these books get written down in such a tumultuous time? And then in some ways, it's like, that's pretty wild, that it gets recorded and then passed down at such a tumultuous time in history. How does all that work?
Safwat
This is a very interesting question when it comes to Ezekiel. Because, you know, for the most part, biblical traditions would likely have emerged in some sort of an oral context and proclamation and then over a longer period of time, they would be committed to writing and redacted and edited in order to reach the final form of the text as preserved either in the, you know, Hebrew texts, or the Greek texts, or the different versions as they continue to be embraced as sacred texts by the community of faith.
In Ezekiel, though, there are some strong scholarly opinions that Ezekiel was probably a writing prophet, like from the get-go. Obviously, you know, to proclaim a message is likely to also happen orally. But maybe the process of proclaiming orally and writing happened faster in Ezekiel. And one of the clues that we get from the book itself is when God gives Ezekiel a scroll, and tells Ezekiel to eat the scroll. That the prophet is yes, internalizing the message, but also that the prophet himself becomes the message. Hence, all of these sign acts that the prophet performs. But then it's possible that part of the writing was also some sort of a courageous prophetic commitment, that, "Look, when God is proclaiming this message, it's going to happen, and it's in some ways, here's a proof, in this written scroll of the text itself." So there is, you know, strong opinions in the circles of Ezekiel scholarship, that Ezekiel is one of the exceptions to these gaps between oral and written traditions, that it's likely that Ezekiel could be a writing prophet from the get-go as well.
For the book itself, to be the book as we know it now, and as you can imagine, you know, biblical scholars love to talk about, you know, the complex processes of the formation of the text. The opinions vary, you have scholars who talk about very minimal contribution to the prophet Ezekiel himself to the book, to the other side, even among critical scholars, who also argue that Ezekiel is responsible for the majority of his book. Where scholarship is now as well, is more of the balanced perspective where Ezekiel is responsible for the majority of the book, as we have it in the book of Ezekiel. But there are some interpretations or additions that have come down from the Persian period. So a little bit after Ezekiel’s time himself, that are reflecting some of the promises of the return, some of the politics during the Persian period, and the realities of the people post-exilic period, after Ezekiel himself.
But for the most part, most scholars would attribute and ascribe the majority of the book to the prophet Ezekiel himself. One of the interesting things about the book of Ezekiel is the way it's structured, you have kind of like two major sections. One is predominantly words of judgment, which you find in chapters 1-33, and predominantly messages of hope that one finds in Ezekiel 34-48. And the oracles against the nations are grouped in chapters 25-52, which works kind of like a bridge between the judgment of Judah, the judgment over the nations, the destruction of Jerusalem, and then in chapter 34, the prophet starts to speak words of hope and restoration and healing and transformation for the people.
Even though we have these two major sections: judgment and salvation, like all other prophets, you will always find words of hope that are inserted among words of judgment, and then also some glimpses of judgment, still, in the midst of words of salvation—which, to me, in some ways, this is kind of like keeping the readers on their toes, it's not that we are done now with judgment, and now we turn to salvation, or we are just doomed and there is no light of hope, whatsoever. There are like glimpses of how God exercises God's sovereignty, both in judgment and in salvation, that work together in both parts of the book.
Jared
It's really interesting to think about Ezekiel being more directly responsible for the book, and it's something you said earlier has been rolling around in my head—I'm wondering if you can say more about that—and that is that Ezekiel seems to be trained as a priest. And I think there are prophetic books that tend to have a more priestly slant and those that don't. I'm wondering—can you say more? I think you mentioned a couple of things. But as readers are reading through, what impact does that have on the shape of the book, to have someone who was trained in the priestly tradition? Because again, I'm just channeling this... Not great education that I might have gotten when I was younger of just kind of thinking, "Well, it kind of seems like everybody who is part of the Bible world were priests." But I think there's a specific shape that this book takes. Like, what impact does it have that Ezekiel is trained in the priesthood and then becomes a prophet in this time?
Safwat
Certainly. I think this is a very important question, because in some circles, the priestly worldview has a bad rap.
Pete
[Chuckles]
Safwat
As “it’s legalistic, it's not important, it's not helpful,” where I think we can be very much enriched by understanding some of the priestly theology, which obviously can be found in the Torah and the Pentateuch, but also we see some connections, deep connections, between what we see in the book of Ezekiel and what we see in the book of Leviticus and Numbers, where we see some manifestations of that priestly theology. So just to like, bring the readers into the book through this priestly lens, one of the ways that we can look at the structure of the book—in a different way other than judgment and salvation—is to look at where the divine appearance, the theophany—the divine presence, which is so crucial, the divine glory that represents the divine presence in the priestly worldview—where it appears in the book.
And soon enough, like once we open the book, there is a divine appearance, there is a message about the glory of the Lord that appears to the prophet Ezekiel in this magnificent, complex vision as early as chapter one. Where in Babylon, God appears to the prophet who's exiled, and who has simply lost the sense of orientation, which is the representation of the whole group that was exiled. God is not appearing in the temple, God is not appearing in the normal place where the glory of the Lord ought to appear. In some ways, this is showing breaking of boundaries, it's showing divine mobilities, showing divine freedom to appear to the people of God beyond the institution of the temple.
Then once we keep reading in the book itself, then another kind of like priestly aspect that appears in the book that relates to the divine presence is, God takes the prophets on a tour, pretty much a journey from Babylon, in some sort of trance. God takes the prophet to Jerusalem, where God is showing the prophet (in Ezekiel chapters 8-11) God is showing the prophet the abominations that the people are committing in the temple. And then God tells the prophet that the glory of the Lord is about to depart and leave the temple. Because the temple has been defiled. Then God promises that God, Godself, will be a temple for the people in exile. Which again, this is, in some ways, innovative theologically. God is free, God is with the exiled, God is with those who have lost everything in this foreign land. But at the same time, it's also a message that is heavily priestly, where the way the prophet speaks about God's judgment has to do with both defilement and the holy—God who is holy cannot come in contact with a defiled space, such as the temple, because of the idolatry of the people.
And what God is about to do, is that God will leave the temple, and only when God does that, the Babylonians are capable of conquering Jerusalem and the temple. And this is trying to actually answer a very important theological question during the time of Ezekiel: Is Yahweh weaker than the Babylonian gods? That Yahweh is now losing the battle to the Babylonians. And the answer that Ezekiel is offering, like other prophets: It's not that Yahweh is not sovereign, it's that the people have committed sins, like idolatry, that even forced God in some way to leave the temple. And therefore God kind of hands them over to the consequences of their decisions in some way.
And then to continue this kind of priestly image about the divine presence, where now we have this gloomy image of God leaving the temple, then the way Ezekiel talks about salvation towards the end of the book, we have this magnificent, detailed vision of a new temple that is being rebuilt. And in chapter 43, the glory of the Lord that represents the Divine Presence, that has left the temple and Jerusalem to be destroyed, is now coming back to dwell in the midst of the people in the temple. And from under that temple, runs this life giving river that is going to transform not only Jerusalem, not only the land it touches, but even the desert, and all the trees around it will have these life-giving, healing, performing leaves that will transform not only human creation, but also the nonhuman creation. So this is one crucial aspect about Ezekiel's priestly theology, that he frames both judgment and salvation in terms of the divine presence, and in terms of the centrality of the temple.
There is another thing that I would like to mention about the priestly worldview and how Ezekiel, kind of, as the priest prophet, frames some of the, kind of, messages that sometimes we as readers, contemporary readers, pitted them against each other, that I find them to be really fascinating in Ezekiel. Where sometimes we think of holiness as something that is separate from the notions of justice, the notions of taking the side of the powerless, or doing what is right for the weak, and doing economic and social justice around us. One of the really interesting things about Ezekiel—and we see glimpses of it in the book of Leviticus—where the holiness, to be a holy people, is not separated from doing justice. And sometimes ,to be honest, it makes me think that to be holy, as a people of God, is actually to do justice. And these two categories, that sometimes because of our different theological backgrounds, we kind of pit them against each other, they are integrated in the prophetic work and prophetic witness of Ezekiel.
We could look, for example, at chapter 22, where the prophet talks about how, you know, the priests failed to teach people how to differentiate between what is holy, and what's profane, what is clean and what's unclean—this is heavily priestly language—but then, right away, he talks about how there is bloodshed of those who are innocent, there is taking advantage of the orphan, of the widow, of the stranger. These two messages are not pitted against each other in Ezekiel. But for me, it makes me think that for the people of God, to be holy, is for them to do justice, is for them to take the side of the oppressed, to care for those who have been impoverished by the economic and the political systems around us.
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Jared
It seems like what you're saying is, Ezekiel is sort of reconciling a theology of place with this reality of exile with the divine presence, and my question is: is Ezekiel's argument, is it an innovation of saying, "No, listen, we have to think about God's presence differently. It's not the case that God is only here, but is also with us in exile?” Or is it, there's sort of this maybe a more traditional theology that says, "No, God has left the temple because of your sin and that's leaving the people vulnerable." It's more of a centralized theology of place, or is it—again, this evolution of saying, "No, listen, we have to think outside the box here. It's not just that God is in the temple and that's where God is most powerful, but God can be present with us even in exile?"
Safwat
This is a very good question [Laughs]. Because I think both are happening and taking place within the prophetic witness of Ezekiel. Because I mean, like God returns to the temple. So there seems to be some sort of tension within the traditions of the book about this notion of God who's mobile, God who’s free, the glory of the Lord that accompanies those who have been exiled, sent away from their homeland, giving them a sense of hope and accompaniment in the midst of alienation and suffering with forced migration and displacement.
But in reality, God still goes back to the temple, when possibly the people now are coming back because you know, what is pronounced in chapters 34 and 36 is a return to the land, and chapter 37, the revival of the dry bones, which all signifies the return of the people to the land. So God comes back to the land after it has been sanctified and after the temple is being rebuilt. So to me, I think, there is a beautiful tension within the book of Ezekiel, about God who’s transcendent, God who cannot be controlled, but who cannot be contained, God who cannot be manipulated, but also God who wants and desires to be accessible, God who desires to be accessible in ways that are life-giving, and that's part of the priestly worldview.
And I think this speaks to us, theologically speaking, and practically speaking, in a very beautiful dialect. If some people, to them, their spirituality, their theology, their encounter of God is very centralized, then this idea of freedom of God is in some ways asking of them how they have been trying to control and box God in a particular way. And if some people, their theology and their spirituality and their understanding of God is more leaning towards this free God, aside from maybe even an institution such as the temple, maybe they are being asked in what concrete ways—as you named it, Jared—this idea of the place, the concreteness of divine encounter, the specific ways through which a particular group of faith can speak about God and engage God. And I think both are quite important for us, because they kind of like, help us to create a more balanced, maybe a more paradoxical understanding of how a transcendent and immanent God is revealed and spoken of in scriptures, including Ezekiel. So it asks of us: what do we think about sacred time and sacred space? And that does not necessarily mean limiting God, but God's still free.
Pete
Earlier you mentioned in passing the harsh language that we find in Ezekiel, could you give an example or two of that?
Safwat
Absolutely. There is a lot of harsh language in Ezekiel. One of them is where God, in some ways, says, "I will have no pity on the people." They are handed over to famine, they are handed over to starvation, to the sword, to pestilence, to destruction. And in my understanding, some of that is the prophet is already capturing what is already happening, what is already being experienced. And the prophet is using this extreme language, this extreme proclamation of judgment, in order to possibly give voice to the destruction that the people are going through. In some extent, possibly some sort of a disguised lament, to the horrors that the people are experiencing. Even though it comes as God saying, "I will do this to you, I will do this to you," it is in an indirect way of capturing the horrors that the people are already experiencing.
Another harsh language or difficult language to read in the book of Ezekiel—and I think we need to continue to wrestle with—is found in chapters 16 and 23. And in chapters 16 and 23 the prophet uses the marriage metaphor, which is already found in the book of Hosea, but Ezekiel even goes further than that, where the judgment is more horrific that happens to the woman that represents Israel. So just for those who are not familiar with this marriage metaphor, in Hosea and Ezekiel, the prophets try to speak about the unfaithfulness of the people of Israel in their covenant with God, by way of using the language of marriage, and they portray Israel, or Judah as a woman who betrays her husband, which represents God in that metaphor. And what happens when this unfaithful act takes place, is that the male figure in the metaphor uses violence against the woman. And scholars who use a feminist approach for scriptures have shown how this language can perpetuate sexualized violence, and it's really important for us as readers of scripture to be aware of the historical context out of which Ezekiel comes, but to be also brave enough to also confront and expose some of the patriarchal images, the misogyny that appears in these texts, the violence that is brought upon the woman in these metaphors.
And these passages need to be looked at in faith community settings, in ways that do, like trigger warning, whenever they are brought or read in spaces, and also as a place where the church could start to expose various sexualized violence that happens within the church and within faith communities and within our contexts. So those are two examples that I think are really important for us to understand as we read the book of Ezekiel, that as much as we try to understand Ezekiel in his historical context, some of those texts still perpetuate theologies or worldviews, that I think, to be faithful to the fuller witness of Scripture, we need to dismantle some of those images, especially the sexualized violence ones.
Or God uses the Empire. This is also another piece that we don't talk much about when it comes to the prophets. Both Ezekiel and Jeremiah and Isaiah, they speak about how God uses Assyria or Babylon in order to bring judgment over God's people, and that has been abused, and misused by many people to justify violence against the colonized and imperialized communities. And I think it's really important for us to wrestle with the complexity of the prophetic texts, because later on, the same prophets proclaim messages of judgment over the empires, whether Assyria or Babylon, as well.
Jared
I think that's really important. And as we wrap up our time, I'm wondering if you can speak on one more thing that you mentioned that I think ties some of these pieces together. You know, talking about justice, sexualized violence, and empire, but also going back to what we were talking about earlier, when you mentioned the paradox of this transcendent and accessible God. Another paradox, perhaps, a seeming paradox, is this holiness/justice that seemed to be put at odds. But there is an integration—and I'm wondering, I wonder if it'd be a good, almost pastoral way to leave our time here—if you could speak more to how Ezekiel does tie these together. And maybe if you could set it up by talking and helping people understand more how these have been put against each other or set against each other in either/or, and how Ezekiel brings those together in this both/and. Because I really appreciate how you're bringing these pieces that seemingly don't fit together, together.
Safwat
Yes. I think we are like—especially in a North American context—we have pitted being holy against social justice. "This is the liberal camp. This is the conservative evangelical camp." And these categories seem to be, in some ways, foreign to how Ezekiel is bringing these two together. I think it is crucial for us to start to wrestle with that tension that we have kind of left, the notion of holiness and the notion of social justice, that what God is calling us to be in the world as a faith community is to be in God's image, in some ways, like God, holy in our commitment to those who have been oppressed and been marginalized. And this is exactly the context that Ezekiel emerged out of as an exile, as a forced migrant, as someone who experienced trauma and horrors. He tried to give words to these experiences that the people went through. And it's showing that the same God who proclaimed these words of judgment is still active in the life of the people to bring healing and transformation and restoration.
And I think, to capture that, possibly looking at like chapter 34, for example, where the beautiful image of a shepherd is used in order to expose how human shepherds have defiled the land, and the temple, and God's people, and their responsibility—so those people who are in power, have, in some ways, committed abominations by oppressing the poor, the marginalized. They did not heal the wounded sheep, they did not care or tended for them, and then God proclaimed judgment over those powerful people who have abused their power. And then God comes as a shepherd in order to heal, in order to restore, in order to proclaim a covenant of peace, a covenant of shalom.
And this covenant of shalom, which is spoken of in chapter 34 and chapter 37, is where I think we can find the language to bring all these things together. Because shalom talks about wholeness, it talks about integrity, it talks about wellbeing that covers all of our being as humans, in relation to God, in relation to the world around us, in relation to different communities that experience power in different ways. And also even to the non-human creation.
The other place where I find this integration of holiness and justice happen and take place in chapter 36 and chapter 37, the prophet articulates something that is really crucial about the need for human communities, for the people of God, to have this renewed heart, to have the Spirit of God, to empower them to obey, to empower them to embody, to empower them to be transformed, to empower them for their will to be renewed and revived, which happens in the dry bone vision, where God brings these dead bones, gives them power and new life and a new identity so that they would be able to live into this holiness, into this justice-making where they care and tend for the poor, and for the powerless, and for the migrant, for the orphan, for the sojourner, and for those who have lost hope.
If the people of God are the dry bones, they are called to speak words of hope into this broken world, into this world that is like dry bones. And the words of the people in chapter 37 are magnificent, where they say, "We are cut off, we are hopeless." And in all honesty, I think many of us experience that on a personal level, on a communal level, where we look around us in our world, in a world of polarization, in a place where faith communities are trying to make sense of what's going on—where we say we are hopeless, we are cut off. We, in some ways, are also articulating our need for God, God's spirit, God's prophetic word to speak something new to us, to revive us.
And that revival in chapter 36, chapter 37, does not just focus on the human creation. When God restores the people to the land, the land is revived. When they are revived and given a new spirit, the land produces. The non-human creation is healed and restored. So even talking about ecology and environment within Ezekiel, as much as it is affected by human defilement, human rebellion, human injustice, it is also renewed when God renews the faith community. When they come back, the land produces and it's healed and restored. That is holiness, that is speaking justice, not only to human communities, but also to the non-human creation, as well.
Pete
Safwat, thank you so much for that answer and also for just spending time with us here today talking about Ezekiel. We had a wonderful time and I know people are going to love this.
Safwat
I did too. Pete and Jared, thank you so much for this invitation. I really enjoyed our conversation together.
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Jared
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You've just made it through another episode of The Bible for Normal People. Don't forget you can also catch the latest episode of our other show, Faith for Normal People, wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for Normal People podcast team; Brittany Prescott, Savannah Locke, Natalie Weyand, Stephen Henning, Tessa Stultz, Haley Warren, Nick Striegel, and Jessica Shao.
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