Episode 29: Grace Ji-Sun Kim – A Theology of Visibility

Jared  

You’re listening to Faith for Normal People, the only other God-ordained podcast on the internet.

Pete  

I’m Pete Enns.

Jared  

And I’m Jared Byas.

Intro  

Pete  

This is the last call to sign up for our November class “Claiming the Promised Land: Dismantling the Doctrines that Shaped the World,” taught by Sarah Augustine. That’s happening live for one night on November 16th, from 8-9:30pm, Eastern Time. And the class will cover such things as; the Christian story that justify conquest, how the Doctrine of Discovery became part of the legal system, a theological framework for decolonization, the connection between Earth care and decolonization, and following Jesus’s call, concrete steps toward repair. When you sign up for the class, you get access to the live one night only class, a live Q&A session, the link to the class recording so you can watch it back anytime, and downloadable class slides. As always, it’s pay-what-you-can until the class ends, then it costs $25 to download. If you join our online community SONP, you get access to all our classes for just $12 a month. So for more information and to sign up, go to TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/DoctrinesOfDiscovery. 

Today on Faith for Normal People, I’m joined by nerd in-residence Anna Sieges-Beal, she’s been on the podcast before as a guest, and this time, she’s a co-host. So welcome Anna to the podcast.

Anna  

Hey, I am so glad to be here. And I am really excited for everybody to hear our conversation today.

Pete  

Yeah, so am I. In this episode, Anna and I are talking about a theology of visibility with Grace Ji-Sun Kim.

Anna  

Yeah, Grace is a Professor of Theology at Earlham School of Religion, and is the author or editor of 21 books? Good grief-

Pete  

Wow, yeah.

Anna  

Including “Invisible: Theology and the Experience of Asian-American Women,” which plays a big part in our conversation today.

Pete  

Yeah, and don’t forget to stay tuned at the end of the episode for quiet time where Jared will jump back in and will reflect on what we learned from Grace and how it impacts our stories of faith. So alright, folks, let’s just dive in.

Grace  

“The Bible should also have a warning label that it may touch on patriarchy, genocide, enslavement, war. In the name of God, we have killed so many Native Americans, in the name of God we enslaved Africans. Can anything good be found within Christianity? So I ask myself a lot that question: should I leave? Should I not?”

Intro  

Anna  

It is so good to have you with us today.

Grace  

Yeah, thank you for the invitation.

Anna  

What I’m wondering if you could do—do you think that you could explain the theology of visibility in one sentence?

Grace  

Well, that’s hard to do in one sentence, but I will try. Because, you know, when I wrote the book “Invisible,” you know, I began with a lot of terrible things in our society. So I went through the history of Asian-Americans and, you know, there’s all these bad things that have happened to us, and I felt, you know, “I can’t just have a book of negativity,” so I thought about it a lot and then I developed the theology of visibility. And I think in one sentence, it’s about trying to eliminate the evils of racism, discrimination, sexism, and xenophobia, and to make visible the problems which cause some groups or individuals to be made invisible in society. So it is trying to work towards making our issues bigger, so that society, especially the white dominant society, will recognize that, hey, racism is not Black and white. There are people in between: Asian Americans, Latinx, Native Americans. So this theology of visibility is trying to work towards eliminating the evils by exposing and sharing with society that this is happening.

Pete  

So Grace, if I may, just for clarification, the idea of visibility is to make visible the entire spectrum, let’s say, of racism.

Grace  

Pete  

Especially in America, we do tend to polarize between Black and white. But there’s much more to it than that.

Grace  

Yeah. And I grew up in Canada, and we never talked about racism in Black and white terms. And then I moved here to start teaching and overnight, I recognized it was Black and white. And so whenever I shared any of my experiences of racism, and actually it would go beyond racism, because I do talk about different forms of discrimination and sexism and xenophobia. But just to give the example of racism, whenever I said to anybody, that—that was racism towards me, they all said, “You’re not Black, so I can’t be racist.” 

Pete  

Oh, wow. 

Grace  

Oh, yeah. And I continue to get that a lot because I’m not Black. So the binary understanding of racism is not a good way to look at it. So many of the Asian-American community, our voices are washed out, our issues are not made visible. America, we talk about enslavement, you know, that’s a big topic, which is important. But then we don’t talk about the indenturing of Asian-Americans. And when I, you know, in my, on my own podcast, “Madang,” I had Lisa Sharon-Harper, African-American, and she said, you know, “the difference between enslavement and indenturement is that indentured workers have an expiration date.” That’s the only difference. So we don’t talk about these issues. 

And when I did this book, “Invisible,” I really wanted it to be a lens for other people to see how discrimination or oppression occurs. So yes, it happens to Asian-Americans. But you know, in society, there’s other groups, those of different sexuality, different gender identity, etc. Many people, their issues are made invisible. So the book is only a lens to kind of see the rest of the world because, you know, Asian-Americans are not the only ones oppressed, there’s many other groups and if you want to look globally, right now, what is happening, we know certain groups of people are made invisible, and we don’t want to hear their issues, we kind of push it under the rug, and think, oh, you know what? Your issue is not that important.

Anna  

And you know, so much of what you do in your theology of visibility is you point out how not only are you a minoritized person, but you’re also a woman and so those two things coming together play a large part in your story. And I’m wondering if you could say more about that?

Grace  

Yeah. So when I was growing up, you know, I was born in Korea, and we emigrated to Canada in 1975, I started kindergarten. And when I think about the two points of oppression in my own particular life—because when I do theology, you know, so much of it comes from my own life experience. And that’s nothing new. Many theologians do that and if they say they don’t, there is some of that coming into the theology. But when I look at my own life, the two points of oppression was sexism and racism. So I felt racism within society, and then sexism in family, in culture, and Christianity or religion. So those two are big sources of oppression. And I think we need to fight both of them, as well as other forms of oppression.

Anna  

And I mean, there’s a word for that, too, right? Those different avenues of oppression coming together would be intersectionality. I wonder if you could explain that term a little bit.

Grace  

Yeah. So I have a friend, Susan Shaw, who teaches at Oregon State University. And we met and we said, “Oh, we should write a book together.” So one of the books that we co wrote is “Intersectional Theology.” So it’s really to say that, as an individual, you know, you, yourself and Pete, we don’t have just one identity. You know, for me, I’m a woman, heterosexual, educated, able, immigrant, marginalized, there’s so many forms of our own identity. And that would be the same with you, Anna, and with you, Pete. So there are these multiple understandings of who we are. And when we think about oppression, it’s not just one form of oppression. There are these multiple intersecting forms of oppression. That’s why we know that women of color are oppressed way more than a white woman. You know, because there are these intersecting forms of oppression, there is the racism, there’s classism, whether you’re an immigrant, you know, xenophobia, all those things are happening. So it’s really recognizing that different forms of oppression work together to continue to oppress. So that’s kind of like just the intersectional theology or intersectionality, which was coined by a Black woman.

Pete  

Well, Grace, you’ve alluded to this already, but I’m interested in how diving into your own story, how that enriches your theology, because you do reflect on your own experiences. So talk about that. Help us understand that a little bit more.

Grace  

Well, I always say theology is biography and biography is theology. That’s to say that, you know, theology is a study of God. And we can only come to understand God through our own experiences. There is no other way to come to know who God is, but through our own life experience. So when we think about when feminist theology emerged, a lot of the feminist theologians used their experience. And then the traditional white European man said, “Oh, you know, that’s not theology because you’re using your experiences.” But if we really examine the two thousand year history of theology, the white male Europeans used their own experiences too. When we study Luther or Calvin or Augustin, they all wrote theology from the context that they were living in and some of their experiences. Augustin struggled with his sin, he wrote about it. And you know, Luther struggled with his sin. And so all of the theologians, whether they admit it or not, they are going to come to know God from their experience. 

Some of us write a bit more about our life story to make the theology makes sense. Some people delete it, but they’ve come to that theological conclusion, from their personal life or life journey, it not to come from there. It’s not something just drawn out of nothing, it has to come from our experience. So for me, you know, I included a lot more in it and when I wrote “Invisible,” when it came to the copyediting stage, I had actually gotten really ill in between submitting and the copyediting stage. I was hospitalized, and I had kind of forgotten what I wrote in it. And when I got the copyedited files, I realized, “Oh, my goodness, I wrote so much of my story in here.”

Pete  

Grace  

It was a bit more than I thought I had included. And then I was thinking, maybe I should start deleting some of my personal stories that were tied into the theological themes and this understanding of theology of visibility, the concept of being invisible. And then when I thought about it, and I kept reading it over, I thought, if I start deleting, I have to delete more and more stories. And then I thought there will be no book left.

Pete  

Anna  

Well, I’ve got to say, I’m so glad that you kept all of that in there, because it really helped to ground your theology. 

Grace  

Oh, thank you.

Anna  

Yeah, I thought it was great. And I mean, I wonder what it would be like if more people did theology this way, where they talked about who they were, and how that forms how they think about theology.

Grace  

I think then the common people in the pews or regular people in society will read it more, I think. People are scared to read it, because they think theology is so heady, philosophical, it doesn’t relate to them. But once we realize that theology is so important, and every year as I teach and as I write, I realize how much more important it is than the year before. Because it really determines and it really influences our laws, our understanding, our behavior, our ethics, it just intersects with all of our life. So I wish people will write more from that perspective so more people will read it and recognize the importance of religion, the importance of Christianity and theology.

Pete  

Well, I would add to that too, Grace, that, you know, part of the white Western male dominance has been, you know, obviously detaching your own story from what you’re doing, because it’s a purely, it’s an objective undertaking. And part of the postmodern turn is that, yeah, that doesn’t really work very well [Chuckles]. Well, because we all have an agenda. We all have a story. And plus, it’s just more interesting. 

Grace  

Uh huh.

Pete  

You know, I mean, if I tell stories, I can actually hold people’s attention for longer than just talking and just, you know, “here’s my great thought for the day.” But people relate, I mean—Jesus told stories, right? 

Grace  

Yes. 

Pete  

So I mean, I think we’re in pretty good shape here talking about stories and the importance of that and relaying our own stories. If this is about a pursuit of God, and living well in the world, I mean, it means stories are going to be front and center, I think. 

Grace  

Yeah. And you know, the Bible is just a whole big book of stories. [Laughs] It’s just one story after another of people trying to obey, disobey, find God, lose God. It’s a whole book of just story after story. So I think people’s life stories have so much meaning and depth, and to study each other and recognize, you know, being a straight person, understanding and hearing the life stories of different sexuality, you know, those are helpful, it helps us understand some of the oppression some of the difficulties that people are going through, or for example of disabled versus abled, to hear those stories and finding God in their personal experiences really deepens our own understanding of who God is, and the greatness or the infinite God in our lives.

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Anna  

So, so much of what you do in this book is, it’s not only telling your story, but you’re telling generational stories, and I love how you focused in on the women in your family, and you could lay out the abuse that your grandmother underwent and even you talked about how, I believe it was your mother, went through all of this trauma and just kind of internalized it and then thought of like her own gallstones as being part of that trauma. And I thought that was such an interesting idea. And I’m just curious for you, what role do you think generational trauma played in forming this kind of theology?

Grace  

Actually, that’s a good question. In Korea, we have the term Han, H-A-N, and I use it to develop the theology of visibility—I use four Asian terms. So I use uni—And we can talk about a bit more later after this question—the other one is Han, Chong, and Chi. So Han is a Korean term, which, you know, all languages, things get lost in translation but I think the best way to understand Han is unjust suffering. And a lot of the Korean women, from generation after generation, have talked about their Han. 

And I remember talking to Diana Butler Bass and other white scholars and theologians and they said that trauma gets passed on from one generation to another. And that is almost very similar to this understanding of Han, it gets passed on from one generation to another. That’s why theologians, when we are talking about Han, we want to work towards eliminating Han, because if we don’t eliminate it, then it gets passed on to the next generation. And the bodily harm, the feeling of unjust suffering gets passed on. 

And you know, in many Asian cultures, we talked about ancestors and you know, when the missionaries came, they thought we were all evil because we practiced ancestor worship, which is not what white people think we’re doing but anyway, that was a term that was given by white people—and so we understand that the ancestors are with us and so it’s not like a linear way of thinking. It’s very cyclical and this intergenerational trauma gets passed on. And as theologians, we want to work towards eliminating Han, which is this unjust suffering. So we think, “Okay, what causes unjust suffering?” There are systems that cause unjust suffering, like racism, and sexism, you know, socio-economic systems that are set up to keep poor people poor, and the rich, richer. So there are these systems. So, you know, as a liberation theologian, as a constructive theologian, we want to work towards eliminating these systems that cause unjust suffering.

Pete  

Grace  

Oh, that’s a deep question. Um, I grew up reading the Bible. You know, my parents are very conservative evangelical, kind of Pentecostal style Christians and, you know, I read these picture Bible books that my dad ordered someplace that comic ones etc. So I grew up on these stories, and much of the stories that I read, I was really afraid of who God is, because all I remember was the wrath of God, the anger of God, the Israelites were all scared that God was going to punish them. I think as an adult now, and as a mother, I really lean into the stories of God’s grace and love. And they are all in there if we focus on those stories, and the stories of women who are made invisible in the Bible, who are not named—because we’re not worthy enough to have names—but I really lean on those stories because especially in the gospels, you know, in a patriarchal society, how did these stories survive? That’s incredible to me. So I really appreciate the stories that survived and were included in the Gospel stories. And even in the Old Testament, some of these matriarchal figures and some women who helped, etc. So I really look at those stories, and they’re very empowering to me. It’s very liberating. And it gives me much hope. 

Because, as a, you know, Korean-American woman, I grew up in a culture where our stories are not that important. In a patriarchal society, the men’s stories are important. The men’s lives are more important than women’s lives. So to kind of look at the biblical stories and find these women, many unnamed women, and it gives me a lot of hope. 

And recently I was in Palestine and Israel. And right where the Bethlehem wall is, from the Bethlehem side, you cannot see Rachel’s tomb, but on the Jerusalem side, it’s right there. So they kind of built the wall around it so it’ll be included in Jerusalem. I just found that really fascinating, that people actually find Rachel important enough that they make pilgrimages to her tomb. So I thought that was very, very important, because I grew up, “Okay, the Bible is very patriarchal, you know, we only had the men’s stories,” but to visit and see how they revered Rachel, that was quite interesting to me.

Pete  

I mean, the reason I ask is because I’ve had, you know, several conversations in my life where people have said, “The Bible has been such a source of pain for me, or for my people, that I really have to leave it to the side, I can’t do much,” and I don’t blame them, frankly, I think there’s a lot of pain out there. But it seems that what you’re saying is that you look for those stories even submerged a little bit and bring them to the surface to maybe accent something that’s other than a patriarchal system.

Grace  

Yeah. And I think the other reason is, well, I’m preaching most Sundays. So [Chuckles] I’m preaching from the Bible and so I have to always look at the good news, or the hidden stuff that is in there. So that’s another way for me to kind of delve into the Scripture. If I didn’t have to preach almost every Sunday, I may be the people that you just described. But I think, from the practice of preaching, I am ordained by Presbyterian Church USA. I just follow the lectionary and I’m always searching for some good news in there. And most Sundays, you can find them in there.

Anna  

Most Sundays [Chuckles], so true.

Pete  

Mhmm [Chuckles].

Anna  

So I’m thinking about, you talked about eliminating evils in this theology of visibility. And what was so striking to me, and what I’ve heard a little bit of, is these different intersections of evil, sexism, racism, sometimes we get the sense that they just are that they just exist, or they’re like, “Oh, no, how did this happen? Well, it’s just the way the world is.” But no, those things are in place because they serve a purpose. And I think that what you laid out with all of the history of the oppression of Asian-Americans on the North American continent, it was just so telling to me that it wasn’t just like, “Oh, that person looks different from me, I’m going to ignore them,” it was “I’m going to legislate so that they will be disenfranchised and white people will be exalted.” And I’m curious about, in thinking about eliminating evils, how do we take on a system that is built specifically to build up certain people and keep other people down?

Grace  

You know, when we think about evil, it’s always put in place because it serves a purpose. And so, you know, the legislation, what Congress passed, if we think about the laws that were put in place, that the Chinese Exclusion Act, Chinese people had to carry papers around, they couldn’t go into court and give a witness against a white person. There were all these things put in place. When there was disease, they were blamed, they were called certain names. These were all put in place to subordinate, to oppress, to keep white people richer, that they will have more power to maintain the status quo. 

So we always have to recognize, why is this in place? Or why is even religion being used to keep certain people oppressed? And we know if we look through society—I have a new book coming out, it was first called “Whiteness,” and it’s with InterVarsity press. And then they changed it to “When God Became White.” And I really didn’t like the title, but now it’s really growing on me. So, because actually the whole book was trying to illustrate why there is so much racism and oppression, it’s because white people have created a white God. And seriously, is God white? That’s what Christianity told us. [Laughs]

Pete  

Grace

People all around the world, you know, “God is white, and God is male.” So the best people in the world must be white, and must be male. So it’s to keep the white men in power, you know, they’re at the top of the hierarchy, and anyone else who are not white and non-male are going to be oppressed in different ways. So there are these systems that are kept in place to maintain the status quo. And religion has played a humongous role in maintaining it. You know, many of us turned to religion, you know, as Christians, we turn to Christianity to find liberation but as you mentioned, Pete, you know, many people can’t even read the Bible, because, you know, of horror that they read in there. But I don’t know, I’m always conflicted, that there is still hope in religion [Chuckles]. Other people have given up on religion but for me, I think there is still hope in Christianity. And part of my role is to share that hope with others, especially the most oppressed and the marginalized, not just here in North America, but globally, because, you know, in different parts of the world, certain voices are marginalized and made invisible and heavily oppressed.

Pete  

Do you, Grace, feel more comfortable with a concept like spirituality versus religion, because of your experiences, because of what you just said?

Grace  

I’m not sure if I feel more comfortable, I use both. Sometimes I get afraid to use spirituality, because I find myself not that spiritual. [Chuckles]

Pete  

Grace  

I don’t want to talk about spirituality, because people may think I’m such a spiritual person. [Laughing] So I think people define it in so many different ways, you know, young people saying they’re spiritual but not religious, etc. I use different words and more and more, I’m turning to the spirit, you know, to, you know, I study more Pneumatology, I write on the Pneumatology and I put that in this book “Invisible,” and it’ll be in the other book that’s coming out “When God Became White.” But I don’t know, by leaning on the spirit, if that equates spirituality to me. I think they’re all very different terms. Even though the word spirit is in both. I’m still very comfortable talking about Christianity and religion, and throwing in spirituality. But I always feel that I’m not that spiritual so I kind of move away from spiritual.

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Anna  

At any point along the way, though, you could have walked away from Christianity. You could have moved in a different direction. And I’m wondering if there was a time in your life where you, you actually felt that kind of tension like, “Okay, I could walk away from this,” but something held you, there was something about Christianity that was winsome to you, or something like that. Was there a time in your life that you thought, “No, I think I’ll stick with it in spite of it all.”

Grace  

Yeah, I get asked that a lot because I critique and criticize Christianity so much. How Christianity reinforces racism and patriarchy, and xenophobia, and discrimination. There’s the Korean scholar, she teaches at Union, Chung Hyun Kyung, and she said, you know, the cigarette packs that we have, they all have some warning label. The [Surgeon General] says, “Oh, the cigarettes may cause lung cancer, early death,” you know, all these other bodily harm. So she said the Bible should also have a warning label that it may cause, patriarchy, genocide, enslavement, war, because people have used Bible and Christianity, in the name of God, they have gone into war, in the name of God, we have killed so many Native Americans, in the name of God, we enslaved Africans. So you know, there are so many negative things and I feel [Sigh]. Can anything good be found within Christianity? So I asked myself a lot, that question, should I leave? Should I not? 

People continue to ask me this question; Why didn’t I leave? For me, it was never a question of leaving, it was more of a question of, there must be something good in here for me. [Chuckles] So I’m always in search of something good. That when we think about who Christ is, we made him so white, we made him this kingly figure, you know, with blue eyes and blonde [hair], really clean body, clean face. We’ve created him, but is that really Jesus? So I’m always in search of hope within Christianity, that I think humanity created a lot of problems within religion, within Christianity. And it’s up to people like you and me to find the errors because so many people sitting in the pews, they feel like Christianity is pristine, it’s, you know, nothing has changed in the last two thousand years, we know it has changed. 

So much mixing and so much has happened. Jesus himself, a Palestinian Jew, probably dark skinned, probably not that good looking. Probably straggly, very dirty, and smelly. We’ve turned him into this emperor, you know, this Greco Roman Emperor, who was beautiful, wearing beautiful clothes and sitting on a throne, we put him in stained glass windows like that. So something has happened. I keep asking myself, why did that change happen? Why did God suddenly become white man? There has to be a reason and it was to help white men be powerful, be rich, maintain that status quo. So for me, it was never a question of should I leave—I struggle all the time within Christianity—but there’s always something in there that I find, there must be something redemptive and liberative. Otherwise, Christianity would have died a long time ago, it wouldn’t have kept going.

Pete  

I think it is, you know, the marginalized peoples that will see that. Right, because those in power don’t see that. You know, there’s, I mean, Grace, you may be familiar with a saying, and I think it was Mark Twain—and again, the sexist language—but he says, “In the beginning, God created man in his own image and like gentlemen, we’ve been returning the favor ever since.” Right? We do tend to do that. I think it’s hard not to think of God in ways that are familiar to us. But the problem, [Chuckles] of course, is that religion is used by people to maintain power, keep power, exploit others, you know, and I see it as this theme that’s run through the history of civilization, as far as we know, of religion and military power, those two things are always sort of together. And, you know, we’re feeling it now, in our context, very much so here, at least in the United States,

Grace  

I agree. And keeping God white and male has been very helpful to those in power. But you know, when we think about God and reimagining God, that’s what I do a lot in my recent scholarship. The terms that we use for God are all metaphors, because we don’t know the fullness of God. And so the metaphors that we’ve used, and you know, the biblical metaphors have been all dominant, powerful, sell God as king, God as priestly, you know, these are all kind of male dominated language. But for myself to move away from that, there are other alternatives, alternative languages and metaphors that are also biblical, and spiritual, I guess, that can help us move away from this dominating, almighty, powerful, male-understanding of God.

Anna  

And I think that is what you are doing in this book is, you’re calling out that which is invisible, things that maybe have not always been invisible, so like the women of the Bible, or your own story, or the story of people like you, and you’re saying, “Hey, we need to recognize this. We need to have this theology of visibility.” And you tell this story about trudging to school one day when you’re five, and the snow is so deep that you lose your shoe, and you just kind of give up all hope, and you’re just like, forget it. I’m done here. And your sister is the one who comes along is like, no, come on. Let’s keep going. We’ve got to go to school. And I just kind of thought that was such a sweet story that goes along so well with what you’re trying to do. 

I mean, it could be that your sister like gave you the strength to carry on when you were feeling helpless, and the whiteness of the snow was just like all around you. And so it was just so fascinating to me that that, to me, really spoke to your struggle to survive within a culture of white supremacy. And I wonder if you could just say a couple words to that in closing about, like, how you envision the fact that you’re still here, you’re still talking, you’re still calling for visibility. And that that really, in and of itself is a triumph.

Grace  

Yeah. You know, it’s weird that you know how you remember certain stories as a child and that story is just so clear to me. I grew up in London, Ontario, which is known as like the snow belt. So we have tons of snow and before immigration, you know, in Korea, it doesn’t snow that much, so to see snow coming up to your waistline is just unbelievable. And, you know, I don’t have—I have good memories, but then also horrible memories of growing up in a white society and white dominant society. 

And interesting enough, the University of Western Ontario is in London, and they invited me so I’ll be going to speak there. They said, “Oh, would you love to come back to your hometown city as a child?” And I, you know, I’m going with a lot of excitement, but also I’m kind of scared because I know, it just, it will trigger some of these memories of feeling hopeless from so much racism every day when you go to school, because, you know, it was the 70s. And people, I think in the US, people knew who Koreans were a bit better because so many of the Americans went into the Korean War, or there was a lot more Korean immigration to the US. But in Canada, there weren’t that many Koreans and you know, Canadians don’t fight so much in wars. So it was a really different era and a different culture and it was so difficult for me to grow up in this white dominant society. 

And right now, I’m sure it’s way more diverse, but it wasn’t back then. So a lot of sense of hopelessness, and I would say to my father, why did we immigrate here? Because I really didn’t like it. I didn’t like the weather, I didn’t like going to school, it was so difficult. And he said, “Oh, this is like the land of milk and honey,” using these terms that the white missionaries gave Koreans to make us all emigrate. You know, when the missionaries came, they said America, or North America is a land of milk and honey and that’s the phrase that my dad would use all the time. But, you know, the sense of hopelessness still comes into my life, in and out, in and out. 

And, you know, when there’s wars raging in the world, I feel this sense of hopelessness, again, because the book “Invisible” is my personal kind of struggle, but I’m hoping that readers will really use it as a lens to understand how other groups of people, whether it’s socio-economic class, ableism, gender identity, etc, are also made invisible. So, you know, Christianity is supposed to be about hope. But so many Christians around the world don’t have much hope. So, you know, I struggle with it all the time and I… You know, sometimes I want to give up, but then, you know, it just makes me want to work a bit harder. Anyway, I’m always living in, in these crosswires and these different realms of hopelessness and hope, that there must be some good news, some form of liberation, because otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to survive all this. Because there is so much racism in the academy, there’s so much racism in our churches, in our society, in our neighborhoods, it’s everywhere. You know, when I fly, or when I teach, it’s systemic. But I, you know, I find hope that there are others who are struggling in this, and trying to fight the system, so that we can stop this generational Han that gets passed on, that we can try to eliminate these unjust systems that exists in our society. And at the end of the day, we’re hoping that God gives us this power or empowers us to do the work.

Pete  

Well, Grace, thank you so much for being with us. This is a great note to end on, I think. Realism, but also hopefulness and want to thank you for your work and for sharing your life with us a little bit today and are just taking the time to be here. And we’re very, very grateful.

Grace  

I’m so honored to be on your podcast. Thank you so much, Anna and Pete.

Anna  

Absolutely.

Pete  

Thank you, Grace.

Grace  

Thank you.

Jared  

And now for Quiet Time.

Pete  

With Pete and Jared.

Jared  

Wel, Pete, on the episode, Grace said something interesting, it’s meaty, I think there’s a lot to unpack here. And that is that theology is biography and biography is theology, and that we can only come to understand God through our own experiences. So—

Pete  

Mhmm.

Jared  

I don’t want to talk necessarily abstractly about that idea, but more your reflection in terms of your biography, what does that mean for you? We can talk some abstract because I think it’s a big concept, but I also want to know, for you personally, what does that mean?

Pete  

Well, I mean, it’s, I think, is first of all, absolutely true that, you know, that’s one of the themes of- well, the main theme of “Curveball” that I just wrote is that our experience affects how we understand God, which is a sort of a simpler way of putting it. But I think what could be more obvious in a way, but I think it’s worth saying, because we sometimes abstract things, and but our own biography is very much intertwined with our theology. And I mean, for me, I guess, you know, I can think of all sorts of life experiences that have nudged me one way or the other, that have given a context for how I think about God. Everything from, you know, going to seminary, for example, for me, that was a big thing that affected and changed me and then going into graduate school and that’s not just the academic study of it, it’s just the effect that those experiences had on me as a person, and how all that is filtered into how you think about theological things and how you think about God. So, you know, to start talking about, you know, what are my experiences, like, it’s every last one of them, nothing is irrelevant. The Good, the Bad, and The Ugly. So I think it’s, I think she made a very good point, and one that, you know, I think, Jared, we can both concur here that, you know, in our histories, you know, in different denominations, that would be frowned upon very, very quickly here, your experiences get in the way of things and I think nothing could be further from the truth. Our experiences or who we are.

Jared  

And I think it comes from a misunderstanding of relationality and how our perspectives, a lot of truth is found in the in between this, in our relationship—to use the boogeyman word—it’s relative to our experiences. And I think we’re afraid of that. I know, I was afraid of that, I think certain institutions and others are afraid of that, because of what that might mean. But that shouldn’t keep us from acknowledging it. And I, you know, I think of, thinking through a previous episode, where we had Christin Fort talking about attachment theory, and how our relationships and experiences with primary attachment figures, parents and others, when we are preverbal, infants, likely have an impact on how we think about God when we’re older.

Pete  

Right. It’s not even conscious experiences, it’s much deeper experiences and just the complexity of what makes us us. I mean, how can that, again, not be a part of the whole story of the how we think of God and theology? And that, you know, connects easily to something that—I mean, I think it was just, I had this epiphany years ago, and I think I was in graduate school at the time where I thought, “You know, theology is really psychology and sociology.” It’s our inner dispositions, which is what you’re talking about. And in our experiences, of course, and our experiences are both, you know, within ourselves but also in groups. 

Jared  

Mhmm.

Pete  

Right. So a lot of our theologies really rest on what groups we belong to, and how we feel about being in those groups, and how important it is to get the affirmation of those groups, and how at home, we feel with those groups. Well, and of course, what can make people nervous is the subjectivity of all this stuff, right? And we’ve talked about that before. Like, we don’t want subjectivity, we want objective grounding for our theology. And I’m happy to say I think that objective grounding is God. But I think our understanding of God is anything but objective. It’s connected to who we are and I think the sooner we embrace that fact, the sooner we can get down to business.

Jared  

Right. And I think within that to the idea came to mind for me that our minds, in this conversation, I think what’s hard is it’s a paradigm shift to see that maybe our minds, how we think of this, our psychology, others, sociology, theology, God, they’re not that distinct. It’s not just, they influence each other, it’s that maybe the boundaries between me and somebody else isn’t as distinct as I think. Maybe the distinction between God and me and others isn’t that clear, maybe it’s permeable. And that gets into how our understanding of science, in a paradigmatic way, matters. Because when we talk about-

Pete  

What do mean by that?

Jared  

Well, when we’re informed by things like quantum mechanics, or we’re informed by things like complex systems theory, these ideas that scientists are coming to recognize are in the fabric of the universe. That just changes how we think of our interactions. I just think, in the tradition we grew up in, everything was very mechanical. It assumed a mechanical worldview that we inherited from the Reformation and the Renaissance, where it’s that, you know, you set the watch, and it just works, and it clicks this and that clicks in everything has a cause and an effect and everything is distinct piece, and it’s atomistic-

Pete  

Right, everything—there’s atomism, individualistic, right? So that’s all boiled- combined with that, right?

Jared  

Yeah. But if we, if we start to, you know, scientists are starting to recognize at the base level, things are not as distinct as we think they are, right. And so that impacts this idea, again, of theology is biography. If you still have an atomistic worldview, that can be a scary thing. Because from within that what you’re saying is, “a one is influencing the other,” but from a different paradigm, where things are more connected and unified into one thing, that’s an obvious thing to say, theology is biography and biography is theology. Not because they’re overlapping, but because they were never separated.

Pete  

Yeah, that’s just that it. It isn’t like a new thing, it’s more of a realization, becoming aware of the state of reality in the sense and that takes us away from simply, you know, theology is the best arguments or the best logic, which is, that conjures up notions of neutrality, of not subjectivity. And-

Jared  

Yes, neutrality. That’s a good word that I think—can I ask this? Not to get us off track—but I do think it’s relevant. I think that’s what people are after. I think it’s a good word, neutrality. Why do you think we’re so hung up on neutrality?

Pete  

I think because we want the reality of God to be an objective truth. And you can’t have objective truth if everything is flooded by our subjectivity. But again, the notion—you use the word relationality and that’s, you know, a lot of people were talking about that, in part because of quantum physics, but there are no thing- nothing in the in the cosmos is separate from anything else. Everything is interconnected, whether it’s big systems, you know, or the smallest subatomic particles, they’re connected, nothing actually exists on its own. And, you know, I mean, I use the analogy of the atom, you know, the atom is made up of, it has a nucleus made up of neutrons and protons, and—but it’s really not made up of it, it’s those things in relation to each other are the thing, right? It’s not ingredients you’re adding, they’re things that are just in relation to each other, make something up. And that thing that it makes us bigger than the sum of its parts. And I find that fascinating, because that works on so many levels and you know, if that’s true—you know, was it Richard Rohr’s—”everything belongs.” You know, everything’s connected, everything’s together. And we know that getting back to, you know, all theology is, you know, a matter of our own biography, our experience. Again, not to sound stupid here, but how else, what else is it? [Chuckles] You know what I mean? I don’t even have a category anymore for saying, “Oh, no, no, you just gotta sit down and do your reading, and learn the languages and use the philosophy or the logical rules and things like that,” all of which is great, by the way. But all those things are a function of our experience in our in our shared humanity and our subjectivity.

Pete  

How does this relate? We have a couple of minutes here, and I’m going to pick your brain on something that I have a genuine question about: How would you distinguish, then—we talked about theology as biography, we say they’re all connected. But then, how is it different from the field, say, of Biblical Studies? Where there does seem to be a value of knowing original languages, there does seem to be value in authorial intention. How do those relate in your mind?

Pete  

Well, I think you know, even the value of languages and authorial intention, I think, those are also collective kinds of knowledge, that isn’t just me accessing something on my own. There is a deep subjectivity to it because I’m the one doing it, and I’m doing it in community with other people. So it’s psychological and sociological.

Jared  

So when we say objective even within these fields, we are talking about a… it’s a collective acknowledgement of methodologies or processes that we found valuable, that we are acknowledging within a community that has the purpose of understanding something? I don’t know how to…

Pete  

Right. I don’t have a good answer for it.

Pete  

Well, you know, I think like knowing the languages, for example, right is a—I mean, I hate to use the word “tool,” because again, it implies a neutrality—but these are, it’s like math. You know, it’s a basic tool that you use, but by it, you shape your reality, and you interpret everything. So. And the thing is, even the study of language has an interpretive dimension to it. And as soon as you get into interpretation, into hermeneutics, we’re very much in something that’s not objective, because it shifts and moves and ebbs and flows over centuries. And there are different approaches to these things, because different people at different times are engaging the text with the languages, but they’re coming up with very different ways of understanding the Bible. So I, you know, I think you agree, Jared, that you can’t really get away from, at some level, the subjectivity of it all. Even if there are things that, I don’t mind saying, are more neutral. Like, Greek is a language, Hebrew is a language, Aramaic is a language, it can be learned, the rudiments of it can be learned, but then the use of it and the interpretation of it, that’s a whole other level of owning it.

Pete  

And I think, in my opinion, and the history of interpretation will bear it out that you’re not going to find it. You’re just not going to find it. And you have to be okay with that. 

Jared  

Yeah. 

Pete  

Which, you know, enters the subjectivity of human existence. I think that’s where we are. And I think we have to be okay with that. 

Jared  

That’s fine. 

Pete  

I’m okay, I’m learning to be okay with it. If we want to get personal here, I’m learning, and in fact, I’m quite comfortable with it. You know, I don’t resist it, you know. And I might have 20 years ago, or 30 years ago, but I don’t anymore, because my experience has brought me to the point where I understand that theology is biography.

Outro  

Jared  

Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you want to support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just want to give a little money, go to TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/give. 

Pete  

And, if you want to support us and want a community, classes, and other great resources, go to TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/join. 

Jared  

And lastly, it always goes a long way if you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show. In addition, you can let us know what you thought about the episode by emailing us at info@TheBibleForNormalPeople.com. 

Outro  

You just made it through another episode of Faith for Normal People! Don’t forget, you can also catch our other show, The Bible for Normal People, in the same feed wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for Normal People team: Brittany Prescott, Steven Henning, Wesley Duckworth, Savannah Locke, Tessa Stultz, Danny Wong, Natalie Weyand, Jessica Shao, and Lauren O’Connell.     

Outro