Episode 25: Eddie Howells – Christian Mysticism Is Actually a Thing

Jared  

You’re listening to Faith for Normal People, the only other God-ordained podcast on the internet. 

Pete  

I’m Pete Enns. 

Jared  

And I’m Jared Byas.

Intro  

Jared  

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I guess that’s the S-word, right?

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It could have been anything. RIght?

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I figured that out.

Jared  

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Intro  

Pete  

Today on Faith for Normal People, I’m joined by our nerd-in-residence Jennifer Garcia Bashaw. Welcome back to the podcast, Jen.

Jennifer  

Thank you, Pete.

Pete  

We’ll be talking about Christian mysticism is actually a thing with our guest Edward Howells, who goes by Eddie.

Jennifer  

Eddie is honorary research fellow at the University of Roehampton, as well as Associate Tutor in Christian Spirituality at Ripon College Cuddesdon, both of those in England. His work focuses on Christian spirituality and mystical theology, with particular attention to the medieval and early modern periods.

Pete  

So this is a real academic study of Christian mysticism. And he’s a co-author of the “Oxford Handbook of Mystical Theology,” which as you may have guessed, is pretty relevant for our topic today, and as always, don’t forget to stay tuned at the end of the episode for Quiet Time.

Intro  

Eddie  

“I think this is something that mysticism does for theology, is it reminds us—and metaphysics—it reminds us that this is about a way of life, not just about a theory. It’s about how you live into your reality. It’s about where you understand the truth of your reality to be. How you see it’s about contemplation. And this is an intensely practical thing as well as theory. It rebuilds the link between theory and practice.”

Jennifer  

Eddie, welcome. We are very excited to have you here to talk about Christian mysticism.

Eddie  

Yeah, thank you for having me!

Jennifer  

I was actually wondering what got you interested in studying Christian mysticism? Did your religious background introduce you to it? Or maybe did you have some experiences that led you in that direction?

Eddie  

I have been interested in it since I guess I was an undergraduate studying theology. And I went to a course on the subject, and I didn’t know anything about it. But I immediately resonated with it. I was, at the time, an evangelical Christian and I resonated with the way that it talked in a mature way about deep personal relationship with God. And when I read the mystics, such as Julian of Norwich, Teresa of Ávila, John of the Cross, it was clear that they were able to tell me about knowing God, and that was very exciting. I think, too, at the time, I was not well. I had an intestinal illness called ulcerative colitis, which kept me out of my studies for a bit, and it was a kind of turning point in my own faith, and these mystics really fed it at that time. I think they particularly helped me to see that there is a sort of invitation in times of crisis or difficult times to see more of God. This is a contemplative capacity, I guess, to see God even when you don’t expect to see God. I felt they were talking directly to me in that situation, even though I was reading people who wrote five 600 years ago.

Pete  

Mhmm. So you’re talking about knowing God as opposed to—I mean, this is rather cliche—but I think for anyone who’s done theological study, like getting a master of divinity, for example, there’s always that juxtaposition of learning about God versus actually knowing God, right. So that’s, I mean, that’s part of your experience is moving to that more intimate side of things, right?

Eddie  

Those two things were both very much parts of my life, but they were running very much on separate tracks. And I think reading the mystics, I saw a possibility of integrating those two things. So to use the mind, intellectually, you could explore ideas. But you could do this in the context of understanding your own, you know, your own self.

Pete  

Well, I think, you know, I think that’s a common, those two tracks, parallel tracks that don’t really come together very easily. I think a lot of people struggle with that. You know, they don’t have to have gone to a Bible college or something to do that, I think. It’s just the nature of the beast, and maybe, you know, learning about mysticism can help people bring those tracks together a bit. Which brings us to the question, what is mysticism, actually? [Chuckles] Well, I mean, when you say mysticism, to some people, it’s a very negative term, it’s irrational, it’s subjectively experiential, and not resting on solid data or things like that. But how would you define mysticism?

Eddie  

I think there are many approaches to mysticism, you know, historically, and one needs to put them together in some way. But I think at the heart of it is what my teacher Bernard McGinn calls a direct or immediate consciousness of the presence of God. And mysticism is concerned with cultivating that, and understanding it. So it’s not just the experience, but it’s all the resources you can get hold of to help you understand and live into that.

Jennifer  

So has Christianity always been a mystical religion, or did it develop at some later point?

Eddie  

Well, the word—I think it has always been a mystical religion, and that it always is, but I think historically, the word mystical has not been used at all times. And it only develops in Christianity at about 200 in the Common Era. It developed, I mean, I’d say there are three strands to that development. The first would be mysticism as a level of understanding of scripture. So it’s the earliest way, in which the word mystical was used in Christianity by figures such as Origen of Alexandria, who ran the Catechetical school in Alexandria, which was an ancient Christian center of learning. He would talk about the mystical sense of scripture or mystical understanding of scripture. And that was the level at which scripture put you in touch most closely with God.

Pete  

Is that allegory? 

Eddie  

Yeah. 

Pete  

Okay, so that’s an allegorical, alright, not like a literal or historical.

Eddie  

That’s right. I mean, you go through the historical and the literal, but you go to a deeper engagement with God, which is helped by allegory. And for Origen, it is very much, it requires allegory. But that would lead him to say, for instance, that the Song of Songs was the most mystical text in the Bible, because it talks about the direct address of God to the human soul, in terms of intimate love, moreso than other books. It’s just a song sung directly between what he calls the bride, who is the soul, and God, who is the bridegroom, and you get the idea of mystical union, of a marriage type of union, between lovers coming from that reading of the Song of Songs. So that’s really one major element in the development of the term. 

Eddie  

I think the second is the figure of Dionysius, the Syrian monk who wrote in about 500 AD, had a work called the “Mystical Theology.” He gave this term mystical theology to his understanding of God, particularly in what we call negative terms. That’s to say, God is incomprehensible, God is beyond knowing. And he made this paradoxical point that we actually can approach God most closely by admitting that we do not understand God fully. We are moving into a mystery greater than ourselves. And that kind of reorientates us towards a God who, in relation to him, we grow, we move forward rather than staying still. And that is an important element in mysticism, this notion that we are dealing with one in whom we are moving closer by virtue of what we are doing mystically in our contemplation and so on. That’s the negative strand. It’s the hardest to explain, but it’s very prominent in the tradition. 

And the third one is associated with a figure of Augustine, the great religious, theological teacher, probably the greatest theologian in the Western church, after scripture. And he contributes the element of interiority, that’s to say, of looking inside yourself to find this immediate presence of God. The interior is the way of introspective awareness of your own presence to yourself. And he has this idea, which he takes from his reading of the books of Plotinus—who is a late-platanist. Or do we call him a middle-platanist? I can’t remember. But he’s in that Greek tradition of platonic thought. Plotinus gives Augustine this notion of interiority as a kind of contemplative practice that sees God as like your own presence to yourself. So if you imagine how you are present to yourself, and you think beyond that, to what is the source of that self-presence, you can get a glimpse or an idea of what God’s immediate presence, God’s mystical presence might be like. Now, Augustine doesn’t actually use the word “mystical,” but he feeds into that tradition that’s developing through Origen and Dionysius and so on. This element of interiority, so that today you have three strands, I think.

Pete  

And I guess the earliest one of those is Origen. And a question that I know people ask, I’ve asked it myself, do we find echoes or hints, or maybe even more than that of a mystical approach to Christian faith within the Bible itself? I mean, is that fair to say? Or do you or do you not see this sort of thing developed by biblical writers?

Eddie  

Yes, I think you do. You see the words mystical, the mystical union of Christ and the church, and mystery, I think too, the word is actually “mystery” there in the Bible. I think it’s more actually, what we’re talking about as this tradition develops than saying that it is there, that the word “mystical” is there. So the word mystical may not be there but the tradition is pointing to an element, yes, that’s very much in the Bible. Which is simply the element of moving beyond a head understanding of faith to one that is actually engaging you personally. That is mystical. It’s the hidden element, the hidden element of God’s direct presence to individuals and to the church that’s talked about in the Bible frequently, particularly in the letters of St. Paul, that we’re in Christ, and Christ is in us. And also in the theological notion that we are invited to share in the relationship of the Son, with the Father, in the Trinity. That filial adoption into the life of the Trinity is central to the mystical tradition, and I think is central to all Christianity.

Jennifer  

The Mystics that I’m familiar with are actually women, I think, medieval women. And so you’ve talked about the men who were early in this movement. Can you talk about the women and maybe why women were drawn to Christian mysticism?

Eddie  

Well, Christian mysticism develops as part of various institutions of Christianity. And as those institutions, particularly monasticism, becomes more available to women, you get more women’s writers in the mystical tradition. And then it becomes a matter of that it also includes laypeople. This particularly occurs around the time of the mendicant movements, that’s the Franciscans and the Dominicans, who are very different from previous monks and nuns in that they go out and teach and preach. And you see a great burgeoning of mystical literature and a lot of women writers in the medieval period, at the same time as this change in monastic practice, enabling more women to participate who would have been excluded before—but in ways which to our eyes today still look very hierarchical, in terms of the ways in which women were permitted to participate.

Pete  

Backing up to something you said before, Eddie, that’s interesting to me about the Bible and mystics. I agree with you, you know, you can’t really find much of what Christians later did or believed, you really can’t find very easily [Chuckling], you know, sort of on the surface reading of, of the Bible. And so it’s difficult to find that there. We do have, you know, “union with Christ” in Romans and “the church united to Christ” mystically, and I think you have that, you know, in a few places, but it’s not really, it’s not what it became later. And so the question that really strikes me as one of curiosity for me is like, why did this develop? Like why? Why develop something in this direction that is maybe hinted at in the Bible, but there are a lot of other things that the Bible hints at. So why do you think this happened?

Eddie  

Yeah, that’s a good question. I think you have to look at institutional developments, as I was indicating about the involvement of women, to see that contemplative life, as it was known, was encouraged through the institution of monasticism. That gave greater emphasis to this mystical element, not because people had time to do it, I mean, people are doing it, whether they, whether there were monasteries or not, I don’t think it’s a question whether it was happening or not. But monasteries gave expression and time to think about this, which produced all these texts that we have. So we have quite a contemplatively-biased tradition of historical texts in our Christian history, which is not to say that contemplation was invented by monasticism. I think it was an element that was cultivated by it, and therefore we see it very much in evidence.

Jennifer  

So I’m wondering, I grew up in a church tradition, pretty Evangelical, and I didn’t know anything about Christian mystics or mysticism until I went to seminary. Do you think that there are certain branches of Christian tradition that have gravitated more towards mysticism, like the monastic movement, or have tended to ignore it? And those that have ignored it or downplay it, you know, why do you think that has happened?

Eddie  

Yes, I think there have been places that it has been downplayed, and one of them is in more typically evangelical, Protestant Christianity, but also other places. It’s interesting that many of the people who are really interested in mysticism are people who’ve had an evangelical Protestant background, because it’s such a surprise and delight to discover it. But I think the reason perhaps for that is…Well, of the many reasons, it goes back to the Reformation. The suspicion really, at the beginning of the Reformation, about excessive amounts of time and energy spent on the inner life as detracting from life in the world, it’s being really too otherworldly and possibly detracting from the kind of faith that was being preached at the Reformation which was: there is one step of faith, there is one step of salvation, there is not this process of gradual growth in faith that the mystics were talking about. We must focus on the moment of conversion and the moment of freedom in God that that brings without dwelling on this interior life. 

I think Luther and Calvin did, you know, cut off a lot of wisdom deliberately. But you need both. David Tracy has a phrase “theologies of proclamation and theologies of manifestation.” Theologies of proclamation are those more kind of Protestant word-based preaching theologies. Theologies of manifestation are more about contemplation and seeing, seeing God’s presence. And you definitely need both. Because without the proclamation, you don’t actually tell anyone, [Chuckles] the benefits of what you’ve discovered. But the contemplation, if it gets cut off, it can become quite un-rich, quite shallow.

Pete  

So what can be proclaimed is the manifestation, the invitation to this manifestation. And I’m only making that point because again, in my experience, Eddie, the proclamation is not just a proclamation about anything, but it’s a proclamation about a very specific way of understanding the nature of the good news—which is to save you from going to hell. Whatever happens after that, that’s gravy, but that’s the main point of it. But you can also proclaim something else, let’s say mysticism, right?

Eddie  

Right. That’s what I would proclaim. I would proclaim people trying to find the presence of God in their life as it is, rather than telling them some information that they don’t have about how they should be.

Pete  

That’s a big shift for a lot of people, I think.

Jennifer  

Your work involves engaging, theologically, the Christian history of mysticism. Can you explain what that means? And how does that maybe differ from other treatments of Christian mysticism?

Eddie  

Yeah, I think there are many ways of approaching Christian mysticism, I would say there are three main ways. One is through experience alone. That is to say that it’s a special kind of experience, which you can define—and this goes back to the classic expression of this, this is William James, who was writing about 1900, his “Varieties of Religious Experience,” a very popular book, which sought to remove any consideration really apart from just the quality of the experience. And by that alone, you could define the mystical. And that has had various followers to the present. That’s not the approach I take, because it seems to me the experience actually, when you say you’ve had a mystical experience, you are drawing on cultural and historical resources in terms of the language you’re using, so that that term mystical has a history. You call it mystical because, also because of what it means to you and your circumstances in your own history. 

So you also need history to understand what the mystical is, you need the history of the idea and what it means, and you need theology. For me the theology is the most important part because it actually enables you to relate human, merely human experience to God. It’s the way I take theology to be, in the broadest sense, language about God, understanding of God. It helps you to relate the whole human reality to God. So it’s a [helping deal,] the precision with which you do that if you have some resources from theology. And without those resources, I think you’ve turned mysticism into something very different. It’s like a, it’s a part of the brain or something, which that’s a very different thing.

Pete  

I want to make sure that we get to some very practical matters we’d like to discuss. But before we get to that, one maybe a little bit nerdy question—and this comes out of things that I think you’ve spoken about and written about as well—that mysticism contributes to theology, and to metaphysics. So in a way that’s not going to overwhelm us; What do you mean by that?

Eddie  

I think mysticism I see as a kind of purification tablet, which should be ingested by theologians and metaphysicians, because it helps them to keep tabs on actually what they’re trying to do rather than getting above themselves. Mysticism keeps theology and metaphysics humble, because really recalling that element from Dionysius, it points out that we approach God best when we remember that there is more to God than we’ll ever grasp. And that actually putting that at the center of our language and understanding of God actually gives us a better understanding and language of God than if we forget it. So I think that’s the first thing that mysticism does. 

I think another thing that it does is it rebuilds the link between theory and practice. There was a book by Pierre Hadot called “Philosophy as a Way of Life” in the 1990s, which talks about how philosophy is not just a matter of understanding, but it’s also a way of life for the ancient and medieval thinkers. And I think this is something that mysticism does for theology, is it reminds us—and metaphysics—it reminds us that this is about a way of life, not just about a theory. It’s about how you live into your reality. It’s about where you understand the truth of your reality to be. How you see it’s about contemplation. And this is an intensely practical thing as well as theory. So it rebuilds the link between theory and practice. 

The third thing I’d say is that mysticism—I think we’ve talked about this already—but mysticism helps to unite the heart and emotions with the mind it’s, at root, we get an idea of the mind as more than reason, the mind is also the will and the memory, not just the intellect, from this tradition. We’re encouraged to reason in a way which actually takes account of our feelings and emotions, but doesn’t just say that feelings and emotions are somehow better than reason. It puts them together.

Pete  

Yeah. So in terms of—just very quickly—in terms of the mind, the way I’ve heard it put, and I think you’re saying something similar to this, is that, you know, the mind isn’t- it shouldn’t always be in the driver’s seat. By “mind,” we mean intellect and reason, the mind in that sense. And I think what you’re saying is that mysticism will help decenter that kind of thinking, at least, to maybe bring to the fore the experiential nature of this, rather than something simply generated by our thinking.

Eddie  

Yeah, it needs to feel right as well as to think right. But, I think there’s also, that’s what the theologians and the metaphysicians need to remember. But I think at the other end of the spectrum, you see—let’s practice some spirituality and mysticism. So put your mind to one side and just let it come to you as it feels. So in other words, that’s a divorce of the mind and the heart from the other end of the spectrum. So in the middle, we’re getting this encouragement from the mystical tradition to try and do both at once.

Jennifer  

Well, I want to talk more about that experiential part. I mean, how does one actually practice mysticism?

Eddie  

Yeah, I think one way to think about it, you know, that—I don’t know how practical you want me to be, I mean, I can talk about, you know, things you can actually do—but I think you need to think first of all about what the elements are in the practice. And I think the ancient division of the mystical life into three phases or kinds of elements of purgation, illumination, and union, the so-called “Triple Way,” purgation, illumination, and union. These are the different elements you can think about in your practice. 

The first one purgation sounds a bit forbidding, to be purged, but what it really means is, what active steps do I need to take to put myself in the presence of God? So it might mean praying. It also, I think, very importantly means keeping watch over your thoughts. And this is an idea which goes back to the Desert Fathers, but actually observing what’s coming into your head on a daily basis, perhaps at one time or other in the day. And as Evagrius the desert father says, “follow the thoughts that lead you to God, and work against the ones which do not.” This is your ascetical purgative practice, is kind of mindfulness. And mindfulness in fact, is a way into this, I think. Christian mindfulness. 

Then the second element would be illumination, this is the actual listening, the receptivity, to shut up when you pray. To speak, and then to wait. Illumination, say in Origen, going back to Origen, this waiting is for the principles which lie behind the world, the things which actually show you what’s going on, the hidden meanings, the underlying reason, the deep order and structure of your life. You can expect to receive some illumination about, not in a great picture of everything altogether, but in little hints of what’s really going on. I think this is the stage of illumination and making space for that to listen. It’s a God given stage, it’s a gift of grace. But it requires openness and listening. So practices of listening.

Pete  

It takes a lot of commitment to do that, just to say the least, because I think many of us are wired to not do those very things. But to talk and, you know, mindfulness and waiting is for some of us—not to mention any names of people present on this call, but it might be me—who you know, that left brain, German analytical thing is always sort of at work. And I think getting to the part of mindfulness and receptivity and waiting is part of the process. And, I know that just for me, being in context where people understand that, can actually help you along. Because it’s hard to just, “I think I’ll be contemplative now,” and sit on your couch before, you know, two minutes or up, you’re doing the laundry or something, you just sort of… the monkey brain takes over and you’re gone, so. I’m just—all this to say, I just respect what you’re saying. And it’s serious business. This is not for the faint of heart.

Eddie  

No, and it’s very practical. I mean, it’s something that you need time to practice. But it goes into every moment of the day, in terms of, “I’m not just trying to fix this problem, but I’m trying to listen for what’s really going on in my situation,” whatever it is, and that is a discipline.

Pete  

Yeah. So staying on the topic here of the practical business of all this, again, speaking from my own experience, and having talked with many people, they’d like to get into this. They see it like instinctively, intuitively, the value. Not just the value, like an add on, but just a different way of even being Christian. They say, “how can I do that? Where do I start?” And where might you point people? And I think one very specific way of asking that question that has helped me is: Are there, let’s say in your mind, contemporary mystics who write and think about these things, and have been influential in helping people down this path?

Eddie  

There’s a lot of books that you can read. You know, for me, the most interesting ones are actually the older ones. Maybe that’s because I’m a historian by, sort of, training. But I would, you know, I would say pick up Augustine’s “Confessions,” or Teresa of Avila’s “The Interior Castle.” And Julian of Norwich’s “Showings,” “Revelations,” and just try reading it. And there’s a world there that will open up. But in really practical terms, I think having, not just reading, but having some sort of guide—I’m very involved myself in Ignatian spiritual direction, both as receiving direction and giving direction. This is the tradition of spiritual direction after Ignatius of Loyola’s spiritual exercises, which is quite prominently available. And I think having someone you can talk to about spiritual things, who will take them seriously in a non-judgmental way, is a key part of living a mystical life. And it’s one that goes right back to the desert in the third century, the fourth century.

Jennifer  

As we wrap up, I do want to hear a little bit more about you, personally, and I’m wondering, like, what is it that you enjoy most about studying church history and the mystical tradition? What gives you joy in this?

Eddie  

I think it’s coming to know these people that I read as companions on a journey. Which is…I know would be a strange thing to say to many people. Even people I studied mysticism with in university and teach it to today would say “But these people are so weird and zany. How could you possibly regard them as companions for your own journey?” And it’s true. Not everything in them is easy to swallow or even, you know, right. For me, I don’t think that, particularly you look at the way some of the medieval mystics engaged in ascetical practices, which look really quite dangerous today. Too much fasting and so on. But they open up an imaginative world which is not available to—that I don’t find anywhere else. Even if they’re weird and zany, they open up this imaginative world, which I want to be part of in my own way. That’s exciting. And it carries on, I don’t feel like I’ve hardly begun. I mean, I’ve been doing this for decades. I think it’s now 35 years, and I just feel I’m scratching the surface. So I don’t feel I should be doing something else.

Pete  

Actually, I think that’s, [Chuckles] that’s a great point to end on. Because I think it’s sort of the gift that keeps on giving. And it’s a way of thinking of the Christian faith, I think as more of a path, that we’re constantly learning new things about it as we go. And for me personally, to echo what you’ve been saying about Dionysius, that the center of all this is, you know, we can’t really know God exhaustively or comprehensively, there’s always the mystery to be invited into. And, you know, this mystical approach to Christianity—I hate even calling it an “approach.” It’s a way of being. Not just Christian, but a way of being that invites us to, I think, let go of our little views of God and to try to always be open and follow the path of so many people behind us and contemporary, including you, I would say, Eddie, so. So anyway, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I just learned a lot. I think this is wonderful. I’m sure these people are going to just love and eat this up, because it’s very important. And it’s a big shift for many of our listeners to move from, you know, the proclamation model, let’s say, to the manifestation model, so thank you so much for being with us.

Jennifer  

Yes, thank you, Eddie.

Eddie  

Thanks. It’s been great talking about it.

Jared  

And now for Quiet Time…

Pete  

…With Pete and Jared. 

Pete  

Right, Jared, so Eddie says in the podcast, “At the heart of it is a direct or immediate consciousness of the presence of God, and mysticism is concerned with cultivating that, and understanding. And it’s not just the experience, but all the resources you get a hold of to help you understand and live into that.” A rather complex statement, but you get the gist of it. So you’ve mentioned a couple of times that you struggle with mystery as a word or concept. So can you just think out loud about that a little bit with us?

Jared  

You know, it’s a good question, I probably would need a little bit more time to really formulate a good response. But I can give you my kind of off the cuff thinking about this. And that is, I think, where the definition breaks down a little bit for me—and I don’t mean this in an objective sense, I just mean, for me—is when he says, “a direct or immediate consciousness of the presence of God.”

Pete  

Right.

Jared  

I don’t know what that means. 

Pete  

Jared  

To have a direct or immediate consciousness. And maybe the point is, yeah, because you’re not cultivating it. But I think I’ve spent most of my life training and studying and trying to work through the fact that we don’t really have direct or immediate experiences of the world in general. It’s been very helpful for me to understand that truth. 

Pete  

RI\ight, right.

Jared  

And I think mysticism—I do want to clarify—I think mysticism is different than mystery, in some ways. And so what’s being talked about in the episode with you and Eddie—not to get too nerdy or too semantic about this—but it’s a specific practice that I think has been cultivated. It’s a tradition.

Pete  

It is, yeah.

Jared  

That is, that has, it has specific meaning. That’s different than mystery as a concept. And so I don’t have a problem with the idea of mysticism as a particular tradition within the Christian faith, that I think illuminates things that rationalism and the modern mindset sort of bypasses. But I don’t think that’s the same for me as mystery as a concept, which I still think I have problems with, and maybe we’ll dedicate some time in a future episode to elaborate.

Pete  

Probably would be worthwhile doing. 

Jared  

Yeah, yeah.

Pete  

I think so. Yeah. So you can be corrected. 

Jared  

Well- So I can be corrected. 

Pete & Jared  

Jared  

I mean, maybe we can go back and forth on it. Because I think you do like mystery as a concept. You use it way more than I do. 

Pete  

Yeah. 

Jared  

What’s evoked in that for you that you find helpful and meaningful?

Pete  

I think it just gives me breathing room to be able to say I don’t really know, and I can’t know. And so mystery is, that’s baked into my understanding of just the nature of faith and the nature of Christian life and that sort of thing. So that’s why I like it. You know, I just got to a point years ago where I’m just tired of trying to wrap my head around everything. And I think if God exists—that’s the way I usually phrase that—if God exists, and is in any way responsible for the universe, or the multiple universes we live in mystery cannot be too far behind in terms of how you talk about this God and this experience.

Jared  

Listening to you, I think I’ve maybe pinpointed at least one of the nodes on my problems with this. 

Pete  

Jared  

Mystery always sounds—and I’m going to use a big word here—metaphysical.

Pete  

Okay.

Jared  

Where, what you’re talking about, I would maybe use the word just “humility,” which feels more grounded to me. 

Pete  

Mhmm.

Jared  

When we talk about mystery—

Pete  

Yeah, I see that.

Jared  

—It feels like we’re talking in this ontology or metaphysical thing, transcendence, out there. But the way you’re describing it, I kind of localize as like a deep humility, for me, that helps me stand in awe of the universe in a way that I couldn’t if I didn’t have that.

Pete  

Yeah, I think that’s helpful. I see them as maybe overlapping somewhat…

Jared  

Yeah.

Pete  

…in the sense that humility is what I do.

Jared  

Yeah, your response to mystery and science. 

Pete  

That’s what I’m getting at, it’s sort of a response to mystery. And, you know, I don’t dwell too much in what the mystery is, because that sort of misses the whole point, [Chuckling] as far as I’m concerned. But it is humility. It’s a realistic theology, actually, for me.

Jared  

When I think why I don’t like the transcendence idea of it is because I like to keep it as a response. And this goes back to my original beef with it—which everybody who’s listening probably doesn’t remember when I’ve said I don’t like it—it’s in the context of how it’s been misused in my tradition. 

Pete  

Jared  

And I think it’s misused a lot, even in popular conversations. 

Pete  

Yeah, yeah.

Jared  

Where, it’s sort of like you come up against a paradigm, your paradigm can’t make sense of the data. And so then, rather than the humility to say, “Maybe my whole paradigm is wrong.” I say, “Oh, it’s a mystery, mystery!”

Pete  

“Mystery of God!” 

Jared  

And so the ontology or metaphysics—

Pete  

“You’ll know one day.”

Jared  

Right. The metaphysics of it, when you say in that context, “it’s a mystery,” you are making an ontological statement. You’re saying it is beyond knowing. It’s like, no, it’s just you’re wrong.

Pete  

Jared  

It’s not beyond knowing, you just gotta change the paradigm. 

Pete  

Yeah.

Jared  

And then it will make sense. It’s not a mystery. 

Pete  

Yeah. 

Jared  

And so I can just feel myself getting emotionally reactive to that idea because it’s… it’s saying something about what is in the universe. Which for me, I don’t know. 

Pete  

Mhmm.

Jared  

Like, there’s a step beyond “it’s a mystery” to just like—it is important for me to turn it back on myself and just say, “I don’t know, I don’t know if it’s a mystery or not.” 

Pete  

Yeah.

Jared  

Maybe it’s not a mystery. Maybe I’m just a dummy. 

Pete  

Right [Chuckles].

Jared  

Like, I don’t know. But I think that comes from, that nuance comes from it being used as a way to not confront how you’re thinking about it is in direct contradiction to the evidence right in front of you.

Pete  

Right, it can be used as an escape clause or something. 

Jared  

Right, right.

Pete  

So I do like, I wrote a little bit in “Curveball,” my last book, about what I call mystery passages. Like Paul’s understanding of what it means to be united with Christ, which I think is rather mysterious, or ineffable. It’s not concrete. I use mystery in the sense that, these are words that don’t capture the reality. There’s a reality beyond the words that is sort of like amorphous, and we don’t quite get it, and we won’t get it. You know, Colossians, when we read that “by our suffering, we are filling up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ” I think that’s a deeply…that’s hinting at…what does that even mean? 

Jared  

Pete  

Seriously, what does that even mean? But to me, that’s the allure of it. It’s like, I don’t really understand that. I think it’s pointing me or pushing me to go beyond my analysis. Right?

Jared  

Mhmm.

Pete  

I think that’s probably one reason why mystery is an important word for me, because I’ve really had to learn that my ability to comprehend will only take me so far. And not just even with God, but with many, many, many other things. And maybe mystery is not the best word in all those instances. And that’s fine with me too.

Jared  

Yeah, again, I want to clarify, I have no problems with people. It’s my own baggage. 

Pete  

Yeah.

Jared  

That keeps me from using that word. But I think maybe it’s a helpful perspective for others who may be had that same experience—

Pete  

Right.

Jared  

—where it was abused—rather than used for humility, it was used for the opposite.

Pete  

It can be a liberating concept—

Jared  

Right.

Pete  

—for the people who have had the burden of like, you have to have all your doctrine correct and be able to cross your t’s and dot your i’s and, and find a chapter in verse that supports it. And the more you deal with the Bible, the more I think you realize, you really can’t do that with the Bible. It’s too amorphous at times, it’s too ambiguous, it’s too weird. And mystery is a word that helps me put language to not staying in that mode. 

Jared  

Pete  

That’s really what it comes down to for me. And if humility is a part of that, I think, you know, I don’t think humility should be a special kind of character trait for people who say they’re Christians, I think it should be an obvious one that [scoffs] is, you know, you don’t have to go searching for it. It should be front and center. You know. So I accept all that.

Jared  

Yeah, yeah. Alright, well. What I want to ask is another part of what Eddie says, he says, “I take theology to be, in the broadest sense, language about God that helps you to relate the whole human reality to God.” So kind of, let’s try to make that a little bit more personal for you. Because you know, here at Bible for Normal People, we always talk about all theology has an adjective. It’s not some context. When we say “language” about God, once we say language, there’s always a context.

Pete  

Right.

Jared  

It’s not objective, it is subjective, in some sense. So what kind of theologies do you personally subscribe to? What are some adjectives you might use—

Pete  

Oh boy.

Jared  

—currently to help you “Relate the whole human reality to God?”

Pete  

Jared  

I know, that’s what we do here.

Pete  

No.

Jared  

We ask the hard hitting questions…

Pete  

But not of us. 

Jared  

Pete  

Of other people.

Jared  

Who thought of this Faith for Normal People idea where we have to answer our own questions?

Pete  

Well, I think you’re picking up on a very important thing, though, that, you know, when you talk about language about God, you’re already in the context. And I think for me, part of that is just realizing that everything I say comes out of my context and talking about, you know, language about God that helps you to relate the whole human reality to God—that’s also contextual, how we do that. And so, I mean, what label I would give that is just a recognition that I’m always seeing things through my own experience. That can help me commune with God, but that might not be the way other people communicate, I can’t normalize this. It’s just how it works for me. So maybe it’s just Pete-theology, maybe that all theology has adjective: Pete’s! [Chuckling] You know?

Jared  

Yeah, there’s something to that, about, you know, mysticism maybe can represent that sort of subjective path to that recognition of the divine. We, in that sense, not to—I feel like I’m picking on the language here—but the idea of relating the whole human reality to God, my brain kind of short circuits when I read that language, because I don’t know what that means. Because, for me, it’s more theology in the broadest sense is language about God that helps you relate your reality to God.

Pete  

And even I would go so far as to say, to your understanding of God.

Jared  

Right.

Pete  

Because in that phrase, relate the whole human reality—well I can’t get my head around that—to God—I can’t get my head around that either. So we’re dealing with these things we can’t get our head around. But that’s the reality of it, I think. And I don’t, I don’t run from that and say, “Oh, shucks, what a horrible thing.” To me it’s more of an invitation.

Jared  

Well, and there is a necessity attached to, we still have to get up tomorrow and put our clothes on and go out in the world.

Pete  

Well, you do. 

Jared  

We can’t—

Pete  

I’m a professor.

Jared  

But not yet. We still got a couple of, we got some time for you to have to put your pants on. But—

Pete  

I know.

Jared  

Which seems weird because we’re recording a podcast in person right now. Just to clarify, Pete does have pants on right now.

Pete  

Well, I have shorts on.

Jared  

That’s true.

Pete  

Because it’s summer. And flip flops.

Jared  

That’s true. With socks, of course.

Pete  

Anyway…No, I took those off, because I knew you’d make fun of me. 

Jared  

Pete  

What’s wrong with socks and…?

Jared  

That’s a whole different episode. [Laughing]

Pete  

That’s part of the mystery of what you don’t get, Jared. Socks and sandals are great.

Jared  

That’s right. That’s how the whole of Pete’s reality relates to God, but not me. That’s your journey. 

So I do think, not to problematize all of this, but it is what we’re in the habit of doing. It is, I think, to accept that we don’t have the whole human reality, and we don’t have the whole understanding of God. 

Pete  

Mhmm.

Jared  

And it’s navigating those unknowns that can be part of this process. 

Pete  

Gotcha. 

Jared  

Well, if that didn’t solve all the questions of the universe, I don’t know what will.

Pete  

What will? We’re done. That’s it.

Jared  

Outro  

Jared  

Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you want to support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just want to give a little money, go to www.TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/give.        

Pete  

And if you want to support us and want a community, classes, and other great resources, go to www.TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/join.

Jared  

And lastly, it always goes a long way if you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show. In addition, you can let us know what you thought about the episode if you email us at info@TheBibleForNormalPeople.com.

Outro  

You’ve just made it through another episode of Faith for Normal People! Don’t forget, you can also catch our other show, The Bible for Normal People, in the same feed wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for Normal People team: Brittany Prescott, Steven Henning, Wesley Duckworth, Savannah Locke, Tessa Stultz, Danny Wong, Natalie Weyand, Jessica Shao, and Lauren O’Connell.