Episode 242: Lisa Marie Bowens – The Cosmic Battle in 2 Corinthians

Pete  

You’re listening to the Bible for Normal People, the only God-ordained podcast on the internet. I’m Pete Enns.

Jared  

And I’m Jared Byas. 

Jared  

Hey folks, before we get started today, we want to give one last call for our April class: “The Bible is Not a Sex Book.” 

Pete  

It isn’t? 

Jared  

It’s not a sex book—which is happening live tomorrow, April 25th, from 8-9:30pm, Eastern time.

Pete  

Yeah. And it’s led by our nerd-resident Anna Sieges-Beal, and the class is, as always, pay-what-you-can but only until the class ends and after that, it will be $25 to download.

Jared  

If you can’t make it live, no worries, you can still sign up during the pay-what-you-can window and then you can just watch the recording later. So, for more information and to sign up, go to TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/SexBook. But if you want access to all of our classes, courses, ad-free podcast episodes, you can become a member of our community, The Society of Normal People for just $12 a month at TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/join. Alright!

Pete  

What’s happening today, Jared?

Jared  

On today’s episode, we’re talking about the cosmic battle in 2 Corinthians with Dr. Lisa Bowens. 

Pete  

Yeah, and Lisa is an associate professor of New Testament at Princeton Theological Seminary and she’s the author of “An Apostle in Battle: Paul and Spiritual Warfare in Second Corinthians 12:1-10,” and also “African American Readings of Paul: Reception, Resistance, and Transformation.” Two different books.

Jared  

Two different books. By the same author. Who we’re about to talk you. 

Pete  

Yes.

Jared  

Let’s get into it.

Lisa Bowens  

Jared  

Alright, welcome to the podcast, Lisa! It’s great to have you. I’m excited for the conversation.

Lisa Bowens  

Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Jared  

We want to get specific about a particular passage. But, you know, we talk a lot about context. So, let’s start with the context of Second Corinthians as a whole. What is it about? What’s going on?

Lisa Bowens  

Yeah, that’s a great question. So, there is a lot happening in this letter and because there’s so much happening in this letter, you have some scholars who posit that this letter is made up of more than one letter. But I tend to think that this is one letter, even though there’s a lot happening in this correspondence. So some of the themes of the letter that Paul forefronts right off the bat, is the character of God. Who is God? And he talks about God as the God of comfort in the first chapter. God as the one who raises the dead. God as the giver of the Holy Spirit. God as the one who is victorious. So, right off the bat at the beginning of the letter, Paul forefronts the character of God. So I think the character of God is one important theme of the letter. Another important theme is ecclesiology. What does the community of God look like? Or what should it look like? And Paul talks in this letter about believers, praying for each other, sharing in comfort, but also sharing in suffering. He also talks in the later chapters 8-9 about sharing resources, how believers support one another in times of need. So ecclesiology is another important theme in the letter. 

Affliction and suffering of believers is an important theme. In that opening chapter, Paul talks about his own experience of suffering. And he talks about it in terms of it was such a bad experience that he did not think he was going to live and he was going to survive. And so, again, right at the beginning of the letter, suffering and affliction of believers is forefronted. And you see that theme recurring throughout the letter as well. As Paul says, “We carry in our body the dying of Jesus,” in chapter four. So, that theme of suffering and affliction occurs throughout the letter. Again, you see it in the latter part of the letter as well. And another important theme is what I consider significant is an apocalyptic, cosmic conflict that Paul forefronts in this letter, where you have the presence of martial imagery in the letter, which Paul uses to describe this cosmic conflict taking place between God and Satan, and how believers, and really all of humanity has kind of caught up in this conflict. So that’s another important theme. 

And then I’ll just say one more, the theme of epistemology. Knowledge. How do we know God and also knowledge of God? So epistemology is about knowing, how we come to know, and the knowledge of God. So this is another theme that keeps coming up in the letter. In chapter two, Paul talks about how he and other apostles are being led in this triumphal procession, and that God spreads divine knowledge through them. In chapter five, there’s this different way of knowing, in light of the Christ event. And then, you see in chapter 10, and chapter 12, this opposition to knowledge of God. So, epistemology, or knowledge is a very important theme in the letter. And if I can squeeze in one more…[Chuckles]

Pete  

Absolutely, yes. 

Lisa Bowens  

Anthropology, what does it mean to be human, in this letter? And I think you see, one of the things that Paul forefronts is this understanding of human beings as fragile, as vulnerable, and susceptible to superhuman forces. And so that theme is important because you see it recur again and again in the letter. But Paul juxtaposes the human frailty or the human weakness, with God’s power and God’s strength. So that’s another important theme. 

Pete  

Jared  

Yeah, and as someone who grew up in a more charismatic tradition, like the speaking in tongues, and the supernatural, and all that, this is all tracking. That makes sense that 2 Corinthians was kind of an important letter in the tradition.

Pete  

Yeah.

Jared  

So that’s-

Lisa Bowens  

Yes. 

Pete  

And speaking of which, you know, you’ve written on chapter 12:1-10—among other things—you know, when, in my Bible is taught, these little subheadings the editors put in, Paul’s visions and revelations. So let’s… Can we focus on that now? Let’s get into that. And maybe a way to start talking about it is, can you just run us through the content of those 10 verses? What is it basically about?

Lisa Bowens  

Yeah, so a lot is happening in those 10 verses, right? It’s packed.

Pete  

It sure is. Yeah. 

Lisa Bowens  

Yeah, so Paul, he begins those verses talking about…Well, he begins it, like, in third-person, right, and one of the reasons I think he does that is we have to remember that these letters were read out loud, and so right before chapter 12, he’s talking about how he escapes from Aretas, the ethnarch. And then he goes into chapter 12 about a person, and Christ, and I think he’s doing that for a narratological reason and, in a sense, keeping his audience in suspense. It’s the same person who has gone through all these things in chapter 11. He’s been stoned, he’s been shipwrecked. Is this the same person that now experiences these revelations in Christ?

Pete  

You know, Lisa, I just have to throw this in here, if you don’t mind.

Lisa Bowens  

Pete  

I’m so glad you put it that way. Because my inclination—and I’m not trying to be funny here—but every time I see this, I think of postgame interviews with NBA players. 

Lisa Bowens  

Oh!

Pete  

Who talk about themselves in the third-person.

Lisa Bowens  

Interesting!

Pete  

Which is sometimes ego, but this is not ego. 

Lisa Bowens  

Right! 

Pete  

Right. You’re not saying—This is not ego on Paul’s part. This is, there’s something else happening here.

Lisa Bowens  

Yes, definitely. And I think one of the interesting things is, so he’s in the third-person when he talks about this person going to the third heaven and then he goes back to talking about weakness, he goes back to the first-person. So I think that’s really interesting. So you have this language of visions and revelations, Paul says he’s not sure, this person’s not sure whether they were in the body or out of the body. He has a language of the third heaven and this person hears unspeakable words, caught up into paradise, things that this person can’t share. But then when you get into verse five, he goes on to kind of reveal who this person is, right? That it is actually him. 

And, I think, when you think of what comes before this chapter, all the things that he’s gone through, what some scholars call the “parastasis catalogs,” where he lists all these hardships, all these trials, and tribulations in chapter 11, 12 fits in because all of those catalogs demonstrate his weakness and suffering for the sake of the gospel, and God’s power to preserve him in that. Chapter 12 fits in there because it’s another example of Paul’s suffering for the sake of the gospel, but God’s power prevailing on his behalf. So I think it’s really interesting how, when you look at chapter 12, in light of what comes before, it does give you a different sense of what’s happening in these really profound verses where there’s so much action taking place. 

Jared  

So, maybe I can rephrase what you’re saying and you can tell me if I’m capturing this—I really appreciate the dramatic effect—so what I hear you saying is, chapter 11 is suffering and all of these trials and tribulations and then, it’s almost as though the first four verses of chapter 12 are this fulcrum, where, for dramatic effect, now, he’s sort of saying, “The person who went through all of that, we don’t know yet, but there is a person,” then it’s almost like it changes direction, in a very drastic way. “Here’s all my sufferings, and here’s all this. You know what, I know a man who went through all of this. Visions and being caught up in things that this person can’t even talk about. It was so glorious or exuberant, or, you know, these visions and revelations,” and it’s only four verses, and then it goes right back in from verse five, talking about weaknesses and now back to the first-person. And so, it almost feels like those first four verses of chapter 12 at the beginning are sort of the crux of it. But how would you- Like, you know what I mean? Like, it almost feels like it’s sandwiched between these two suffering passages. So it’s almost like trying to highlight—it seems like—these first four verses in some sense, or for some reason.

Lisa Bowens  

Yeah, I mean, I think all of these verses in chapter…Or, the first 10 verses of chapter 12, highlight—and maybe this is a good way for me to segue into how I relate this passage to the larger themes of the letter—because as I said, a few minutes ago, one of the themes of the letter is this knowledge of God and of how human beings obtained this knowledge of God. And earlier in the letter, Paul talks about the gospel, right? And so, for Paul, part of the knowledge of God is the gospel. And one of the things that’s happening in the Corinthian congregation is that you have these missionaries—some people call these people opponents of Paul, he calls them servants of Satan—but you have these people who have come into the Corinthian congregation, who, from Paul’s perspective, they are opposing the true gospel, the gospel of God. And throughout the letter, you see Paul calling the Corinthians to adhere to the true gospel that he has preached to them and you also have this depiction of Satan as this entity that opposes knowledge of God. So when Paul gets to chapter 12, he’s kind of already laid the groundwork of okay, there’s a cosmic conflict going on between God and Satan. 

Satan is one who he says in chapter 2:11, tries to take advantage of human beings. Okay, so that connects to the depiction of human beings as susceptible and vulnerable. 2:11, Satan tries to take advantage of believers, 4:4 the god of this age, Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers. Chapter 11, he’s afraid that the Corinthians’ minds are being deceived by Satan. So you get this picture of the satanic realm or the satanic entity as one that opposes knowledge of God. And so when you get to chapter 12, “Oh, yes, this person has gone through all these tribulations, all of these trials, God preserved Paul through all of this.” And yet the same person is privileged to have these visions and revelations. And yet, God preserves Paul in the midst of this, but you also have this messenger of Satan, this enemy who attempts to thwart Paul’s ascent. So, you have another demonstration of the résume of Paul, if you will. Once again Paul is trying to oppose the knowledge of God, oppose Paul gaining revelation and knowledge of God.

Pete

Mhmm.

Pete  

So, while we’re on that, a question that many people have, is this messenger of Satan in verse, was it seven? That “a thorn was given me in the flesh.”

Lisa Bowens  

Mhmm.

Pete  

Pardon the pun—but can you flesh that out a little bit? What that means?

Lisa Bowens  

Lisa Bowens  

…about the thorn in the flesh, right? Because, I mean, that has been debated for centuries. What is this thorn? And so, typically people talk about the thorn as an illness, perhaps Paul suffers? Some interpreters say the thorn are the opponents. So you have a range of ideas of what the thorn is. My interpretation based upon—I put Paul’s ascent in conversation with other ascent texts of the period. So, in my book, I also look at Daniel, I look at Apocalypse of Abraham, I look at martyrdom and ascension of Isaiah, so I look at other heavenly ascent texts and also earthly descents, where you have heavenly entities coming down to earth. And one of the things I noticed in a number of those ascents is that you have opposition, you have conflict in the heavenly realms often. 

So for example, in Daniel, you know, Daniel was praying, and the angel finally comes to Daniel, he says, “I would have been here sooner,” he comes to Daniel 21 days after Daniel starts praying, and the angel tells him, “I would have been here sooner, but I was engaged in a battle.” And so, you have a syntax where there is this sense of conflict in the heavenly realms. So when I put Paul’s ascent in conversation with these other ascent texts, when I see him talking about this messenger of Satan, this thorn in the flesh, and he says this entity was given to him “so that I might not be lifted up” (Gk. hina mē hyperairōmai) “So that I may not be lifted up.” So, a number of people take that phrase to say, so Paul gets this thorn in the flesh, so he won’t be lifted up in pride. 

But when you look at other ascent texts, and I do look at parts of the book of Watcher’s and First Enoch, that verb is used to talk about being lifted up physically, like lifted up to the heavens, not lifted up in pride. So, I interpret this passage that Paul is saying, this messenger of Satan, this thorn in the flesh, was given to him, not by God, but actually comes from Satan to keep him from being lifted up to receive revelations from God. The other piece to that too, though, is the term “skolops” which we translate as “thorn” in the flesh. That is a martial term, it’s a military term. So Paul, in my view, is depicting this experience as warfare, right? He’s depicting it as warfare, which corresponds to the other martial terms he’s already used in the letter. So, as I say, I’m contributing to the conversation. [Laughs] It’s a different way of reading this passage. But I think in light of what we see happening in the rest of the letter, and in light of what we see happening in other ascent texts, to me, it’s a plausible reading of what’s happening and why Paul relates this experience.

Pete  

Okay!

Jared  

It could be easily seen that, you know, he talks in earlier verses about boasting and this pride, boastfulness does kind of go into the strengths-weaknesses conversation. So, what’s the sense here of what he means by that if we go with the lifted up physically? Is it that he had been lifted up, he had these visions and revelations, and then he was kept from having more from this thorn in the flesh or the messenger of Satan?

Lisa Bowens  

I think what Paul is depicting here is the attempt of this messenger of Satan to keep him from being lifted up. But this messenger, this angelic figure, demonic figure, is not successful.

Jared  

Oh, okay, okay, I missed that part. I see. So that, ultimately, the first four verses of chapter 12 talking about that is really his triumph over the thorn in flesh? 

Lisa Bowens  

Yes, yes! Thank you.

Jared  

Okay. Okay.

Pete  

I mean, the military language of “thorn” I mean, is there a better way of maybe translating that? Like, is it like a spear, or a sword, or something, or just something martial? Something generally warfare-ish?

Lisa Bowens  

Hmm, that’s a really good question.

Pete  

I mean, you see that elsewhere, I just think it’s interesting that, to me, that alone puts this in a very different light, for me. And then I’m struggling with “a messenger of Satan,” because you know, that whole “genitive of” thing in Greek can be very tricky, but I guess that means something like a messenger that Satan sends, right? Something like that?

Lisa Bowens  

Yeah, that’s the way I take it, but I take it the messenger that Satan sends, I take that as some kind of angelic, demonic-angelic being, you know what I mean? Like, yeah…

Pete  

Okay.

Jared  

And the thorns, it could be sort of like, “Satan sent a messenger, an enemy, to keep me from having these visions and revelations, but they were not triumphant.”

Lisa Bowens  

Right, right.

Pete  

Right. Yeah.

Lisa Bowens  

Yeah.

Pete  

So, I mean, to make sure that I’m understanding this correctly and our listeners too, your reading of these 10 verses is to put this in the context of cosmic, spiritual warfare. Right?

Lisa Bowens  

Pete  

And you’re also… You bring chapter 10 into this as well. Can we go there? And just help us understand how these two sections of Second Corinthians might elucidate and help us understand what Paul’s after. 

Lisa Bowens  

So, when you think about martial imagery in scripture, a lot of people go to Second Corinthians 10:3-6… If I could just read it real quick?

Pete  

Yeah, absolutely. 

Lisa Bowens  

“For all though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage-” And this is my translation, so, “Although we walk in the flesh, we do not wage a war campaign according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but mighty through God for the destruction of strongholds. Destroying reasonings, and every high entity being raised against the knowledge of God, and capturing every mind for the obedience of Christ.” So when you think about, when people think about martial imagery in 2 Corinthians, I think for the most part most people go to these verses. Because you have strongholds, you have weapons of our warfare, you have destroying reasonings. You have all this, you know, not waging a war campaign, you have all of this military imagery. 

But one of the things I tried to do in this book is to talk about, well, yes, this is an important passage when it comes to thinking about martial imagery. But Paul doesn’t leave this language behind after chapter 10. And so you see the occurrence of military imagery after chapter 10. You see it in chapter 11. You see it in chapter 12, with the ascent text. So, what I try to do is show how the warfare that Paul talks about in Chapter 10 continues throughout the rest of the letter. And it comes to a heightened expression in his ascent account. Because the ascent account becomes another demonstration of what this spiritual warfare, if you will, entails. It’s about opposing knowledge of God, opposing the gospel. So I try to show a connection between 12 and 10, and then in my subsequent work after this book, I’ve looked at martial imagery even earlier in the letter. So it’s a theme that really begins, I think, from early on in the letter, chapter two all the way to chapter 12.

Jared

What this makes me think of is this broader context of Apocalypticism that we have to remember our New Testament is written in in the broader culture. But what you’re saying makes it seem like Second Corinthians is maybe even more acutely apocalyptic than other New Testament books that are maybe more generically—it’s sort of in the air, it’s part of the culture. But this seems to be really playing into some of the more direct themes of Apocalypticism, you know, bringing up things like Daniel, and I’m just seeing it more clearly and that helps also, I think, bolster your argument to think that, yeah, if that’s more acutely where Paul’s coming from, there probably are a lot of tie ins to this military language and spiritual warfare throughout the book. So, I think that’s helpful for listeners and readers of the Bible. Is it fair to say it’s more acutely apocalyptic, just in general?

Lisa

Yeah, well, I- Well, that’s one of the things I want my work to do, is to lift up—and, you know, “Apocalyptic,” I’m aware that it’s a… weighted term.

Pete  

Oh, yeah.

Jared  

Right, right. 

Lisa Bowens  

And I liked the way Loren Stuckenbruck talks about it. He talks about it in the sense of human and supernatural beings sharing social space. So there’s a sense that it’s all, you know, that the natural world affects the supernatural and the supernatural world affects the natural and we’re all interconnected. And so I think you see that in 2 Corinthians and it’s one of the things I try to do in my work is to lift up these apocalyptic or cosmic tendencies or depictions that Paul is very much forefronting in this correspondence. And so, if I may say this real quick, one of the things I found when I was writing this book was there are a number of common interpretations of the letter. One is that this letter is mostly Paul defending his apostleship. It’s mostly about him defending his apostleship against these super apostles. And he’s trying to make a case for himself to the Corinthians, so that’s one common interpretation. 

The other common interpretation is, when you get to chapter 12, another common interpretation is that, well, this kind of experience, it really isn’t significant for Paul, he only shares it because these super apostles are sharing their experiences and so he’s like, “Okay, I have to share mine, to try to show that I do have these experiences as well.” But he shares it—many of these interpreters say—only to say it’s not important and so one of the things I’m trying to do is to say, okay, maybe he is defending his apostleship. But I think there’s more going on in this letter than that. Right? So one of the things I try to say is, let’s broaden our perspective on what this letter is about, and that Paul is really forefronting this cosmic contest for the Corinthians. And he’s trying to help them see, “Look, there’s more going on here than the super apostles, we have to look at what power is operating behind them and we have to be aware of this conflict that’s going on, this larger conflict.” And so, he shares this experience, not because it’s not significant, but in fact, because it is significant, it actually demonstrates from his own life, what he’s been telling the Corinthians all along in the letter.

Pete

Yes, I wonder if he is defending his apostleship because they’re living in an apocalyptic moment. And, I mean, that makes sense to me, because I actually struggle with 2 Corinthians because Paul seems a little bit over the top defensive at times. But it might be the moment that they’re in. And the New Testament is an apocalyptic text, you know, you can’t escape it, so, I don’t think you need much of an excuse to sort of see where things intersect with Apocalypticism, especially in Paul.

Jared  

Lisa, can you take us down that road a little bit? Because I think it’d be helpful to understand more. There’s a cosmic battle going on, but what’s really at stake? And you talked about, you know, opposing the knowledge of God. So this thorn in the flesh, this enemy has created an obstacle so that Paul can’t be lifted up to gain these revelations, which is really about knowledge of God or knowledge of the gospel. Do we get a sense in Second Corinthians what the content of this “knowledge of God” is that is being opposed? Because I also think there’s something tied together here with Paul trying to gain knowledge and that’s an important part of the Gospel for him in some form or fashion, but maybe, you can maybe put that together for us a little better.

Lisa Bowens  

Yeah, so early on in the letter, Paul does talk about the knowledge of God being displayed through him and the other apostles through this processional imagery, how God spreads divine knowledge through them. So I think on one hand, for Paul, the knowledge of God is the gospel, right? It’s the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus, it’s the gospel. And so, I think, from his understanding, there is a concerted effort on the part of anti-God powers to try to stop the gospel from going forth in the world. And so, in 4:4, he talks about the god of this age blinding the minds of unbelievers so that the light of the gospel cannot shine forth for them. So I think there is a sense in Paul’s perspective that Satan is trying to stop the gospel from going forth in the world. And so when you get to chapter 12, Paul gives this example from his own life for the Corinthians to see that he, himself, has experienced this kind of opposition from the satanic realm. But he triumphs through the grace and the power of God. So as a sense of sharing with them, “Yes, I’ve experienced opposition and so many forms in my life, even from the supernatural realm, in the sense of this thorn in the flesh, but know that God still wins. God still triumphs.” So I think part of it is this example from his own life to share with the Corinthians, but it’s also to show that the anti-God powers do not win. The gospel still triumphs.

Pete  

And it’s interesting, I mean, the way you bring up, I think, chapter 4, how… I think for Paul—if I could enter Paul’s mind, which is impossible, but I’ll do it anyway for sake of discussion-

I think Jesus was obvious to him, because of his experience, he had an experience of Christ. And, you know, we know—at least I think we know, from maybe like Romans and other places—that Paul really struggles with how people aren’t getting this. And so an apocalyptic worldview is like, ready and waiting almost to cite as the reason why: “This is an attack. This is a satanic attack, clouding the minds of people,” because “Why don’t they just see it the way that I see it?” And so he’s defending his apostleship, maybe—I’m learning about Second Corinthians here talking to you, because I’ve been confused about some things and how it hangs together, but this is really very helpful—Can I ask before, if you’re prepared to do this, because I know you’re working on stuff at this point. But you mentioned chapter 2 of like, martial imagery going back there and I think, if you’re prepared to maybe just, what is that martial imagery there? Because it would really help, I think—it’s a theme, in the letter almost, right? I mean, that’s really what you’re saying. And let’s get more of that theme to give hooks for people to hang thoughts on as they read this book.

Lisa Bowens  

Yeah, that’s a great question. So, in chapter 2:11, this verse appears after he has this conversation about this person who, we don’t know what this person has done, but in some way, they’ve done something wrong in the community. He tells the Corinthians, “forgive them, who you forgive, I forgive.” And then he goes on in verse 11 to say, “You know, we want to make sure we kind of take this person back in to the community, because we don’t want to be taken advantage of by Satan,” in verse 11. And he goes on to say, “Because we’re not ignorant of Satan’s designs, or Satan schemes.” So, that gives you a picture, a beginning picture of how he’s going to talk about Satan in the rest of the letter. 

So, this entity wants to take advantage of human beings, and also has designs or schemes—I wish he would have fleshed that out a little bit more like, what do you mean by that? But we do get a glimpse, and just in that verse, of how he thinks about Satan. And so that verb there, “taken advantage of,” that is often used in martial contexts to talk about military strategies. The strategies that commanders or generals use to kind of map out how they’re going to undertake an operation. So you get that imagery in chapter 11. And you also get it again, in chapter 4, when Paul lays out, again, this parastasis catalog about how he is “afflicted in every way, but not crushed. Perplexed, but not in despair. Persecuted, but not forsaken.” He goes on in that list. And what’s interesting—so this is work I’ve done since the book—but what’s interesting, these terms are often used to describe how soldiers experience warfare. So that theme of martial imagery appears here in chapter 4. And so, you have in chapter 2, you have it in chapter 4, and then you have it again in chapter 11 and 12. So I think, you know, this theme is important because it keeps recurring. Right. Yeah, so hopefully that gets to your question.

Pete  

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, we’re coming very close to the end of our time. I want to ask you a practical question, if I may. 

Lisa Bowens  

Mhmm.

Pete  

We have a letter here where Paul has an apocalyptic outlook, which is almost like the Dead Sea Scrolls, you know, like there’s light versus darkness, good versus evil. There’s one side, there’s the other side. If something happens, it’s Satan attacking. And I’m sure you have experience with people, as I do, who go through their lives of faith with a similar apocalyptic outlook where, I mean, I’ve heard people say things like, they can’t find—literally—they can’t find their car keys. “Satan is attacking me,” right? So how, I mean, if you have a student in your office or something, or you know, in church or whatever, how might you engage someone like that? Because, I mean, maybe we should still be thinking apocalyptically—I don’t think so personally, but maybe I’m totally wrong on that—but just, like how do you talk to people like that?

Lisa Bowens  

Yeah, so, I think what you’re lifting up is the dangers of apocalyptic thinking. Like there is some danger in attributing everything bad to demonic forces, human beings have no agency, “Oh, we can’t stop it because this is just the work of the enemy, and this is what has to happen.” But I think if you read Paul—in my opinion, well—you see that that’s, even though he does have this apocalyptic framework, where there are powers at work in the world, there’s also a part that human beings play in the conflict, right? But you have to be careful with that, too. [Chuckles]

Pete  

Lisa Bowens  

Because it’s not that—And I know that the history of reception of chapter 10 has not been good, because you’ve seen people take up arms on behalf of God, right? But Paul says “These are not fleshly weapons, weapons that we make with our hands or we use. These are weapons,” he says, “that are mighty through God.” And so there is a sense that we have to be very careful in how we talk about spiritual warfare and apocalyptic battle imagery, because it’s not about me taking up arms against someone. That’s not what Paul’s talking about. But it’s an element of the spiritual world in which we partner with God, whether it’s through prayer or through fasting or whatever spiritual practices that—you know, different traditions have different ways of doing this—but we partner with God and we partner with what God is doing in the world, bringing about liberation. Because one of the things, I think, that’s often lost when you talk about apocalyptic in Paul is: what is this about? It is about God through Christ liberating the world from the powers of sin and death, which God has done in the cross through Christ, and God will bring to consummation. And so, it’s understanding the apocalyptic conflict in those terms. The fight has come about, but it’s come about through someone who was crucified. So that gives us another way to think about what power looks like, what it means war looks like. That shifts us.

Pete  

Yeah, puts it in a broader context. 

Lisa Bowens  

Yes.

Pete  

Very much, a broader context. There’s a larger backdrop to the rhetoric that Paul uses here, I guess.

Lisa Bowens  

Yes. And the apocalyptic has to be seen and read through the lens of a crucified messiah. Someone who battles with nails in his hands, someone who battles with nails in his feet, and a crown of thorns on his head.

Jared  

Hmm. I think that’s a wonderful benediction for us to end with. 

Pete  

A very Pauline benediction.

Jared  

Very. Yes. 

Lisa Bowens  

Jared  

Well thank you so much, Lisa, for coming on and elucidating this book for us was really, really helpful.

Lisa Bowens  

Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. I enjoyed the conversation.

Outro  

Jared  

Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you want to support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just want to give a little money, go to www.TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/give.

Pete  

And if you want to support us and want a community, classes, and other great resources, go to TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/join.

Jared  

And lastly, it always goes a long way if you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show.

Outro  

You’ve just made it through another episode of the Bible for Normal People! Don’t forget you can also catch the latest episode of our other show, Faith for Normal People, wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for Normal People podcast team: Brittany Prescott, Savannah Locke, Stephanie Speight, Natalie Weyand, Stephen Henning, Tessa Stultz, Haley Warren, Nick Striegel, and Jessica Shao. 

Jared  

Can we—We can easily forget this, that in the broader sense… the…Sorry, your page is rustling, it’s distracting.

Pete  

Lisa Bowens  

Jared  

We actually brought Bibles today, which we don’t usually do. Well, I shouldn’t say “we,” Pete brought his Bible because he’s a good Christian.

Pete  

I know.

Lisa Bowens  

Oh great!

Pete  

I have it memorized, but I don’t want to intimidate Jared. 

Jared  

Oh yeah, of course, I understand.

Outro