Episode 11: Rainn Wilson – Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution

Jared  

You’re listening to Faith for Normal People, the only other God-ordained podcast on the internet.

Pete  

I’m Pete Enns.

Jared  

And I’m Jared Byas.

Pete  

Hey, folks, before we get started today, we wanted to tell you about our next class called, “The Bible is Not a Sex Book.” [Sarcastically] I thought maybe it was. 

Jared  

Yeah, I mean- 

Pete  

But it’s not. 

Jared  

-You’re blowing my mind right now.

Pete  

I know. “The Bible is Not a Sex Book: A Survey of The Bible’s Diverse and Sometimes Questionable Sexual Ethics and Where We Go From Here. “

Jared  

Wow. Well, it’s going to be taught by our nerd in-residence, Anna Sieges-Beale, and it’s happening live for one night only on April 25th. Put it in your calendars, April 25th, from 8-9:30pm, Eastern Time. But if you can’t make it live, don’t worry, you’ll still get the recording to watch later. So, go ahead and sign up.  

Pete  

And as is always the case, this class is pay-what-you-can, that is, until it’s over and then it costs $25 for the recording. And for more information and to sign up, go to www.TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/sexbook. That’s one word—and if the internet blocks that URL, blame the marketing department.

Jared  

Jared  

Welcome to this episode of Faith for Normal People! Today we’re talking about why we need a spiritual revolution.

Pete  

Yeah, and we have, as our guest, like, we are beyond, beyond honored to be spending today’s episode with Rainn Wilson and talking about his newest book, “Soul Boom: Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution.”

Jared  

Rainn probably doesn’t need an introduction, but for those of you who live under a rock, Rainn is a three-time Emmy nominated actor best known for his role as Dwight Schrute on NBC’s The Office. Besides his many other roles on stage and screen, he’s actually the cofounder of a media company SoulPancake and host of “Rainn Wilson and the Geography of Bliss,” on Peacock, and I’ve actually really liked a lot of the stuff that SoulPancake has put out.

Pete  

Right. And he’s also the author of The Bassoon King: My Life in Art, Faith, and Idiocy, great title—as well as the co author of Soul Pancake: Chew on Life’s Big Questions, which is a New York Times bestseller.

Pete  

And don’t forget to stay tuned for Quiet Time at the end of the episode where we’ll reflect on this episode with Rainn and see how we will maybe carry this out or how that episode plays out in our own experiences of belief.

Pete  

All right, let’s dive in.

Rainn  

Pete  

Rainn, welcome to our little podcast here. It’s so good to have you.

Rainn  

It is a sincere pleasure to be on your pod! Thank you for having me.

Jared

Absolutely.

Pete  

Thank you so much. Well, listen, we want to talk about spiritual revolutions and, maybe, let’s start by backing up a step and talking about how you understand just spirituality. What does that mean to you?

Rainn  

Well, that’s a great question. And in my new book—which I know we’ll be referencing—I actually address…

Pete  

That’s a record for somebody plugging a book on the podcast. [Laughing]

Rainn  

Yeah! Seven seconds into the podcast, [Laughing] In my new book, Soul Boom: Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution by Rainn Wilson, I dig into that right at the get-go. Because I think it’s really important to define terms, these—and I know we’re going to talk about God a little bit later on. But it’s so important to define what we mean when we say these things because they mean so many different things to so many different people. And spirituality to some people means something involving ghosts, and you know, the paranormal, really, because it has to do with the world of spirits. To a lot of folk, spirituality essentially just means religion. There’s not anything separate from religion and spirituality. 

And I guess when I define spirituality, I’m thinking about the non-material part of being a human being. So if we are as Pierre Teilhard de Chardin says, you know, “spiritual beings having a human experience,” then it is our spiritual beingness that has to do with spirituality. You can call it the soul, it’s our eternal essence, it’s that little spark, that little nugget of God, of the divine that’s within each of us that we carry, you know, in our 80 or 90 year trip in our bodies, and then we carry beyond time and space for an infinity beyond when our bodies fall away. So, what is spiritual about us is also what is divine and it is an emulation, I believe, of God, of the divine. That, one way that I talk about it in the book, and I define it as well, it has to do with spiritual virtues. 

So, God, as we know—God is unknowable, basically. So, that’s why we have great spiritual teachers like Jesus, to show us a hint, a sneak peek of God as it were. But there’s so many—when you think of the qualities of God, you think of grace, right? Think of love, compassion, you think of honesty, of grandeur, of nobility, of, you know, the best aspects of being a human being. So, the best aspects of being a human being I would call spiritual virtues. And those virtues are qualities of the divine that we all have within us, and that we all seek to nurture and grow and to thrive over the course of our lives.

Jared  

So that, then, whenever you talk of spiritual revolution, is that talking about really cultivating these spiritual virtues in our communities of faith and in us individually? Or do you, what else might fall into that category of a spiritual revolution?

Rainn  

Well, you’re cutting right to the chase now, aren’t you? 

Pete  

Rainn

Um—you know, I will say that, and forgive me for referencing the book so much. I know, I know we jest and it’s all in fun, but truly like kind of—this book for me, I spent three and a half years writing it over the whole pandemic, and it has everything in it that I’ve ever kind of thought or expressed or mulled over. And I’m so glad about that because I feel like, oh if I’m hit by a bus, in case anyone cares what that guy who played Dwight on The Office thinks, [chuckling] you know,  it’s all laid out here.

But I guess in terms of what a spiritual revolution is, is (and again, sorry, going back to the book). In one of the first chapters I talk about two of my favorite TV shows from the 1970s, Kung Fu and Star Trek. So Kung Fu, for people that don’t know, cuz it was only around three or four seasons, is about Kwai Chang Caine, a Shaolin monk who gets kicked out of his monastery and comes to the United States when there’s a tremendous amount of racism against the Chinese. It’s during the cowboy days, during the building of the railroad days, and he’s on a quest for his brother or his half-brother through the Old West. And I view it as kind of this spiritual metaphor for walking a spiritual path, because he brings this incredible Eastern wisdom and perspective and holiness to his interactions with these racist cowboys and everyone that he’s meeting along the way.  And—

Pete  

And he kicks their butts a few times too, right? 

Rainn  

At least three or four times a show, there’s a major ass whupping…

Pete  

Yes.

Rainn  

—of Kwai Chang Caine.

Pete  

That’s why I watched it, that, I didn’t, I was a kid. There was no spirituality, just butt kicking.

Rainn  

And weren’t we, we were so bored, weren’t we? In the 70s, like, it’s such a slow show, and you’re just waiting. 

Pete  

Rainn  

You’re waiting for him to kick someone in the face. 

Pete  

“Alright, already! Oh my god…”

Rainn  

“Oh, my God, these endless discussions.”

Pete  

“Enough with the philosophy!” 

Rainn  

Yeah, exactly. But Kung Fu is a reflection of our personal, kind of, inner spiritual journey. We’re all Kwai Chang Caine. We are all on a spiritual path in a challenging world, in a world that is materialistic, and competitive and aggressive, and where people can be mean, and selfish, and racist, and difficult. And we seek to bring our wisdom and our perspective as we walk this path, and to further right wrongs, and fight injustice, but also learn and grow. So, that’s one path. 

And then I talk a lot about “Star Trek” throughout the book, because really, just cutting to the chase about what a spiritual revolution is. It’s “Star Trek!” because, yes, Gene Roddenberry was an atheist or an agnostic, and religion is never mentioned in the series. But when you look at it, when humanity has solved its problems at home, what is it then able to do? It’s able to go out into outer space, and to try and seek out strange new worlds and new civilizations, right? But at home, there’s no more racism? The first interracial kiss in human history was between Kirk and Uhura. And there’s no income inequality. And there’s only kind of a democratic justice—and in fact, when you go to “Star Trek: The Next Generation,” there’s no money, and there’s no, even, disagreements anymore. So, you’re talking about building the kingdom of God on earth, like, the kingdom of God on earth, in a way has been built in the world of Star Trek. So that, humanity can arise and thrive and spread the peace throughout the universe. 

So, this spiritual revolution goes in two parts. It’s—as a member of the Baha’i Faith, it’s what we call the twofold moral path or twofold moral purpose, rather—is to seek to become better human beings, to grow our virtues, and also to seek to make the world a better place, a more harmonious place, a more unified place, a more loving place. And we can do that—when I say “the world,” what does that mean? Like, am I gonna go affect 7 billion people? No, we work in our families, we start with ourselves, we go with our families, then we go with our communities, then we go with our churches, we go with our localities, and we spread it from there. But that’s also part of our divine spiritual imperative: is to seek to emulate what Jesus actually did in his life as well, what the Buddha did in his life, which was to build community and to create peace, compassion, and increased love, everywhere we go.

Jared  

I want to maybe dig in a little bit within that, and maybe ask you a personal question in your own life. Because, you know, you’re setting these up—I think of it even within Kung Fu, there is the Eastern wisdom, but also fighting racism. And then, within this Kung Fu and Star Trek twofold path. There’s this debate between these two schools of thought within the Christian tradition, which we would call like contemplative and activist, right? Kind of this…the inner peace of the individual and the outer peace in our societies and communities. And you mentioned in your book, you had this phrase, you said, “What good is a spiritual path that only enriches our own inner peace while hundreds of millions go hungry? And conversely, how do we sustainably serve those millions if our hearts are hard, empty and cold, filled with selfish ego and materialist motive?” So sometimes these are pitted against each other, this kind of the life of the contemplative and the life of the activist aren’t seen as going hand in hand. And I wonder sometimes, if it’s just a lack of time and energy and resources, that some people are, you know, it’s like, “I don’t have time to cultivate both of these things.” And I just wonder how you’ve danced within those two? And if you’ve ever felt that as a struggle, or you lean one way or the other? Or how do you balance that twofold path of the inner life and then kind of the outer justice?

Rainn  

Wow. I love that question, and I love this conversation so much. To me, this conversation right now that we’re having is the most important conversation for people of faith to be having. And it really, really touches my heart. So thank you very much for bringing it up. I think about—and I know you guys are big fans of Richard Rohr, but I think about his, just the name of his little pad there in New Mexico, The Center for Action and Contemplation. There’s a false dichotomy that is often created—that it’s kind of either/or. It’s both/and. And there’s a dance between the two. It’s like the yin and the yang symbol, where we see, you know, one energy is contemplative and internal, and the other energy is external and moves into action. And we need both to, kind of, work. 

I think of another great spiritual leader, Thích Nhất Hạnh, from the Buddhist tradition and his monks at Plum Village sanctuary, and his work is often about—and he was very much a social activist and started protesting the Vietnam War and actually came from Vietnam to the United States to kind of talk about what was happening on the ground in Vietnam—but yet with such grace, love, forgiveness, and compassion wherever he went. So, for me, you know, what it boils down to is, what is God’s will for me? And then how do I determine what God’s will for me is, and that’s always a tricky one. You know, we go to the Bible, we go to the holy books and traditions of the world, to try and understand what God wants from us. And we learn that in parables and similes and poetry, and we learn it too in watching what Jesus did, you know, in Jesus serving the poor and washing the feet of prostitutes and spreading love and building community and reminding people of their mortality, reminding them of the glory of the Father. You know, we see that in his actions. So, that’s one way to steer us. 

But, you know, for me—I’ll just get real personal, like—for Rainn Wilson, what does this mean? Well, you know, I’ve been on a long, hard, difficult spiritual struggle and path throughout my life. And part of it as I kind of realized early on, like, we look at what attributes that God gave us, you know, what gifts did God give me, this peculiar looking comedic actor? And, you know, the ability to make people laugh, to entertain, to play characters, to play weirdo characters and quirky characters is part of, you know, like it or not, maybe I would have preferred to be given the gifts of a brain surgeon or an astrophysicist or a pilot or something. But I didn’t, I wasn’t, I was the cut-up in school, and I could do funny voices and play weird characters. 

And so, I really tried to incorporate my work as an actor into my spiritual path to say, “Hey, these are the talents and faculties and tools and abilities that God gave me,” so bring them forth, you know, and see what happens. And fortunately, I was a part of a great TV show that reached a lot of people and brought a lot of laughter to, to millions of folks and I’ve been so lucky to be a part of that. And part of my spiritual path is direct service. I try and be of service in my family. My wife and I have a nonprofit in Haiti, we try and educate and serve some very, very poor and destitute young women and girls in the reaches of Haiti, in our work. But, you know, I also try and be of service by having these kinds of conversations, because this is one of the things that’s really important is, like, let’s have the deep probing conversations about what it really means to be a human being, again, because to be a human being, is to be a spiritual being. So, let’s talk about what that means.

Pete  

Backing up a little bit, talking about God, there’s a little bit of a paradox I think we all have to grapple with. And that is the “God is unknowable, and yet, seeking a spiritual existence, which somehow connects with this God.” And, I think, this is the struggle of any faith. How do you do that? But I’m interested in just your own thinking, Rainn, about what do you mean by God is unknowable?

Rainn  

Yeah, well, that’s the deepest possible topic and we could spend five hours talking just about that. But, I will say, that through all the spiritual traditions, certainly in the Quran, certainly in the concept of a Brahman in Hinduism, and in the Bible, we perceive God is unknowable in the fact that if the definition of God is some kind of creative consciousness that is beyond time and space, that has made this incredible physical universe that we live in that is almost unknowable in and of itself, and chock full of mysteries, and then, think about, perhaps, infinite other universes, infinite other universes beyond this physical universe, then we’re talking about a—and I don’t even want to say an entity, a force that is so far beyond our comprehension—Pete Holmes always talks about it as being like a dog trying to understand the Internet—but it’s even, it’s even greater than that. 

And so, what do we do? We get glimpses, like my uncle, Dr. Rhett Diessner from Idaho, he studies beauty and he’s a moral psychologist, he went to Harvard, and he studies beauty and moral beauty and the beauty’s effects on people’s behavior. And, you know, beauty is one way we get to know God, but we just get these glimpses, right. We talked about spiritual virtues, so that’s one glimpse. Compassion, love, kindness, humility, that’s a glimpse of the divine. Beauty itself is a glimpse of the divine. And I talk in the book a lot about reconceptualizing God as something away from, as David Bentley Hart would say, something demiurgic, like, a Demiurge, like a God who sits on a cloud and has a bunch of superpowers, almost like a Marvel character, but away from an entity being God and a conceptual God, that we think, you know, like the Bible says and like the hippies said, God is love. Then, if we conceive of God more as like love itself, rather than a guy who’s doing things and, kind of, like Santa Claus on watching us if we’re naughty or nice, then that opens up that possibility. I don’t know if I answered your question. 

Pete  

No, that’s…And Hart also says, you know, that God is not a being, right. And this is part of the traditions of all the great religions, God is being or the ground of being, that through which all things exist. So, you can’t really, like, you can’t even wrap your head around that, and that’s pretty basic to what the nature of God is. So, we’re all in the same boat here, fumbling around trying to understand the nature of God, and yet, seeking God and trying to live in ways that are in harmony with God. And, I think, that’s a paradox, at least for me it is, but it’s a good one. It’s one I can wake up every morning and live into.

Rainn  

So, in the Baha’i Faith, God is described as the unknowable essence, which very much parallels the Prophet Muhammad, “Peace be upon him” in the Quran, that God is the unknowable essence. And at the same time as the, in the Baha’i Faith, we say a prayer every day, which is, “I bear witness, oh, my God, that thou has created me to know thee and to worship thee.” So, wait a second, we are created to know God? We’re created to know the unknowable? That doesn’t make any sense! What are you talking about? 

Pete  

Rainn  

And yet, that paradox, that mystery, is so profound and so beautiful, and it’s something—and why Baha’is really to try and work with people of all faiths, and just cultivate a knowledge of all of the beautiful divine paths that have emerged throughout divine history, human history, including the ones of the Indigenous people, that God in the Lakota tradition is called Wakan Tanka, the great mystery. God is called the great mystery. And that helps me understand God like, “Oh, I don’t know much about beings who are looking down on me, like, was I short with my son? Or was I mean to my wife? Or did I cheat on my taxes? And is God watching me and making me feel bad? And am I gonna go to heaven or hell?” Or something like that. Like, I don’t know about any of that. But, I do know that, there’s a beautiful dance between the great mystery of like, seeking to know the unknowable.

Pete  

Jared  

Maybe we can turn it a little bit back down to Earth, as you kind of were there. You mentioned that Native American spirituality, you talk about it, you know, books like “Black Elk Speaks,” and “God Is Red,” which are both wonderful books, were kind of life changing for you and part of that—I’m Choctaw, so I’m very interested in kind of how this touches here. You talked about Black Elk saying everything is sacred and how that had an impact on you. So, my question is, like, how did that change how you showed up in the world to, you know, we had this—in the same sense that God being distant, and God being so so close, has an impact, I think, on how we see the world and like spaces as sacred versus secular, or how—and again, in the Christian tradition, there’s the sense of a divide between the sacred and secular. And so, I’m curious, you know, I really appreciated you mentioning like a stone bench in your backyard and that becoming like a sacred space for you. But how do you think about the sacred in how you practice your faith?

Rainn  

Yes. So, I talked in the book about this experience I had taking a high pilgrimage to the Baha’i Holy Land in Haifa, Israel. And it’s a holy land for the Baha’is for a number of different reasons. One, is the Prophet founder of the Baha’i Faith, Baháʼu’lláh, spent his last 20 years there and died there and is buried there. So, it is a very sacred spot for that reason. It’s also—and there’s a tremendous amount of Baha’i kind of history from that area and that place in the years thereafter—and also, it’s the Baha’i administrative, World Administrative Center is in that area as well, so, there’s all these reasons why these this particular locale in and around Haifa, and Akko, Israel is very sacred. And I talk about how when I went on that pilgrimage and I had a tangible experience of the sacred, where I’m like, “Oh, here’s where this happened. And here’s where Baháʼu’lláh was imprisoned for 10 years in this one room cell, and here’s trees that he planted,” you know, because Baháʼu’lláh didn’t live that—that long ago. “And here’s where he was buried. And, you know, here’s the beautiful gardens and, you know, everyone’s coming with reverence and sincerity.” And I talk about how missing that is in the modern world. And I really just pose these questions because I don’t have any answers. Like, how do we find—I would pose it to the listenership and I would pose it to the two of you, like, how do we find the sacred in our daily life? 

You know, if I go down the hill from my—I have a lovely home, thank god. Hashtag blessed—with lots of trees. And then if I go down the hill, to the mini mall, to the Starbucks that I go to almost every morning, like, jostle for a parking spot, it’s always really hard is super busy and go in and get my order and they get my order wrong or what have you, like, is that sacred too? How do we find the sacred or sacred spaces? Is every place sacred, you know? Is an ATM on a busy intersection sacred and an autoparts store sacred? Or is it something that we make sacred? You know, I have a little prayer and meditation bench outside my door here that I try and meditate and pray daily and that is a sacred space for me. Nature is sacred to me, you can certainly, again, we talked about touching the divine, we can certainly touch the divine in nature—but humanity has lost its sense of the sacred. 

And it used to be, for the Christians, that sacred was kind of the church only. It was like, you lived in this village and it was crappy and “profane” was the word that was non-sacred. And then the church itself is sacred and what’s in the church and what’s represented by the church, and everything else is profane. And, Mircea Eliade—I don’t know if I’m pronouncing his name right—wrote that book, “The Sacred and The Profane,” which is very thick and difficult to get through, but he makes some really good points in it. And I don’t have any answers around that. But it’s something we need to seek to find in our lives, to touch on the sacred—and the Native American traditions, all of them are so beautiful, because there’s a sacredness in every act and there’s a sacredness in every leaf, and every stone, and every tree, and every sunrise, and every mountain, and in the wind. And the Navajo say, “I walk with beauty, beauty in front of me, beauty on my left, beauty on my right, beauty behind me,” you know, “I walk in beauty.” And that’s kind of the highest form of prayer, is walking in beauty, right? And we don’t walk in beauty in modern America very much. How can we learn more and be more humble about learning spirituality from the fathers and stewards of this land, the Native Americans and their spiritual traditions? 

Pete  

Yeah.

Rainn  

But I’m…What do you guys think? I don’t have any answers.

Jared  

I mean, one thing I was thinking is, you know, there does seem to be—because even when, you know, you’re talking about your park bench, and as I was reading through the book, I felt—similar to this polarity that we talked about earlier between this activism and contemplation, that this subjective and objective polarity were, in some ways, it seems like we often think of sacred things being sacred, like, objectively on their own, like this unique way of being sacred. Like you said, the church is sacred, in definition to the profane, like it’s set apart from it. And just to give a, kind of, Native American spirituality, I think there’s a framework that everything is spiritual, and everything is enchanted. But then, that then allows for this subjectivity, where, as the Choctaw we have these sacred mounds that they were locally- They were sacred to us as a people in a unique way. But it wasn’t different from, everything is sacred to begin with. And that is actually what allowed for these local areas to be sacred. So, in the same sense, I was thinking of your park bench of like, to enchant everything is, actually, it’s not opposed to having unique, special sacred places, it actually is the groundwork for having unique special places. So, it’s not, you know, there’s no opposition to saying everything is sacred and saying your park bench is sacred to you. And I think that’s kind of how we can re-enchant things overall, but then ask all of us to take responsibility for our work to re-enchant our own kind of local spaces and places that we’re at.

Rainn  

Pete  

What Jared just described, that sounds like a spiritual revolution to me. 

Rainn  

Hmm, mhmm. 

Pete  

Right. So, I mean—maybe tying into what Jared is just saying here, too—let’s get at that nature of, what does the spiritual revolution look like? I think I’m getting a sense from you about why we need it because we’ve lost sense of, you know, Jared says, of the enchanted-ness of things and the holiness of things. But why do we need a spiritual revolution? Like, who cares?

Rainn  

Because we’re destroying ourselves, and we’re destroying the planet, and we’re destroying our species. And we’re destroying things for our great-great-grandchildren. So, we need to have a spiritual revolution. It’s not a pie in the sky. It’s not airy-fairy. It’s not naive. And it’s not like kumbaya, hippie-dippie. It’s, if we want to save humanity, if we want humanity to blossom, like in Star Trek—and I think we can even do better than Star Trek, frankly—but if we want the Kingdom of God on Earth, we need to have a spiritual revolution. 

Because one of the things I talk about, like, in the book, I talk a lot about partisan politics because to me, partisan politics—and not to pick out any particular party at all—partisan politics and the toxicity that it creates is literally killing us. It’s ripping us apart. It’s destroying the fabric of our society. Because when you look at, when you start to peel the onion of partisan politics, it’s a quest for power. It’s, “I’m good and the other side is evil, and the other side wants to destroy us. And my side wants to save us.” And it brings out the very worst in humanity, its competitiveness, its aggressiveness. It’s gotten venal. It’s insulting. It’s backroom deals, and backstabbing and gossip. And it’s just, the very, very worst of what human beings are. 

And yet, we put all our eggs in that basket, and we only are looking for a better candidate. You know, people are like, “Oh, we need another Reagan,” or “Oh, we need another Obama,” or “We need another JFK,” or whatever it is, as opposed to, “Wait a minute, the system is corrupt to its core!” And not only is the political system corrupt to its core, it’s the whole materialistic capitalist-consumerist system is corrupt to its core. If the Earth is something to simply extract value out of, and to dump rubbish on to, then there’s nothing sacred about the Earth, but that’s how we’re treating it. And immediately, you know, there might be a knee jerk reaction of like, “Oh, he’s talking about communism, or socialism,” or something like that. It’s like, no, I’m not, I’m just saying that we don’t have a system that has worked yet. We literally don’t. We have to reinvent a new system. And that new system needs to be based on spiritual principles, which have to do with service, compassion, kindness, service to one another, humility, honesty, seeking the divine in each other, recognizing that we’re all part of one human family. And this sounds like hippie-dippie, 1969, BS, but we’re headed for a precipice, and we’re not gonna solve these big issues unless we re-explore the spiritual foundation.

Pete  

Well, the system that causes the problem is not the answer to the problem. 

Rainn  

Yeah. Mhmm.

Pete  

So, you need a whole new system that doesn’t have the myth of consumerism, for example, running the agenda, which is a very…

Rainn  

Yeah. Otherwise, it’s just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Jared  

You mentioned the 60s and, you know, maybe some of the language is reminiscent of that. And I’m even just thinking of growing up in a religious tradition, where that was seen as like, anti-religious—it feels weird saying it now—like anti-religious rhetoric of it was almost looked down on of this, like, “love conquers all, we’re all just gonna get along and sing-” like, kind of the hippie-dippie was the language of it. But that was coming from, like a religious tradition, saying that. I’m kind of thinking of—and maybe we can’t answer this—but how do we bring that back in a way that people can see the power in it now, rather than, again, like you’re saying, like, the tendency to dismiss it as like hippie-dippie? What’s a way that we can talk about this that reinvigorates our imaginations for the future and not just looking back for ways we can dismiss it from the past?

Rainn  

You know, brother, you’re singing my song, baby! I don’t know exactly. I’m open to ideas, I can tell you a couple of things that I have pondered and written about. One is, at the end of the book, I have the seven pillars of the spiritual revolution. And one of those sections is to foster joy and squash cynicism. And I think—I’ll tell you a little story. So, there’s this amazing acting teacher, director, provocateur, named Andre Gregory, and he’s the focus of the movie “My Dinner With Andre,” which is a classic 70s movie of two people having a dinner and having this incredible conversation, mind blowing conversation. So I got to study with Andre Gregory. And he’s like, 94 right now. And he would have meetings with all of his acting students. So, I had a meeting with him when we had tea and he said, “So, how are you? What’s going on?” And I was like, you know, “Andre, I’m just, I’m so… I’m tired. I’m cynical. I don’t think it can come to any good. I don’t know why we do theater and why acting matters. And I just feel like the world’s going to shit.” And he literally grabbed my arm, hard. And he looked at my eyes, and he was like, “Don’t do it. Don’t succumb to cynicism. If you become cynical, they win.”

“You have to keep hope alive, you have to keep your heart open and you have to fight all the time. But you have to know that if you become cynical, they win.” And he’s pointing out the window. I don’t know who the “they” is, but, you know, the forces of crass materialism and cynicism and militarism, and those worst qualities of humanity win if we all get cynical, so, you know, what do we do to kind of keep that spirit? The hippies were really onto something, you know, and that’s when a ton of people became members of the Baha’i faith and and a ton of people reinvigorated Christianity. Hello? You know, in the late 60s and throughout the 70s, and tried to, you know, “Jesus Christ Superstar” and tried to reinvigorate what it meant to be a Christian. So, a lot of good came out of it. And they made a ton of mistakes with the sex and the drugs and it ultimately became just a narcissistic exercise. But, creating joy and keeping hope alive, and quashing cynicism and staying—I don’t want to say optimistic, it’s not quite the right word—but staying, but working toward the light, to bringing light to the world. That’s what we all have to do. And that’s, that’s a key component.

Jared  

I appreciate that. Maybe we can drill down just another level, because I think a lot of people are gonna resonate with that vision of hope and joy and avoiding cynicism. And I think actually, a lot of our listeners are probably coming from a space where they’ve been cynical about their past religious traditions, and are now looking for this hope and this way to foster joy. Do you have some practical—maybe from your own life—like, how did you, when Andre says “don’t give in,” were there practices or practical things that helped you foster this joy or move to this place of hope? And these, you know, moral paths and moral purposes that you see?

Pete  

Rainn  

Well, I wish I had more answers. I don’t have answers, I only have more questions. But, I will say that, in the Baha’i tradition, the son of the founder of the Baha’i Faith, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, who was a great spiritual teacher in the Baha’i world, he talks about joy, and he talks about how joy gives us wings. And he also talks about when you’re feeling down, when you’re feeling less-than, when you’re feeling overwhelmed, go give joy to someone else, and uplift their spirits, and it will uplift your own spirit. So, there’s something about fostering joy, spreading joy, that it almost doesn’t have to do with what you’re feeling inside. Do you know what I mean? You can be feeling like crap and you can still spread joy. And yes, it may have a secondary effect of uplifting your spirit. And that’s great but also, you’re being of service to someone else. So, I try and frequently fail at that- That spreading joy can be, is maybe the greatest act of service. So, that’s one small thing.

Pete  

Although it’s not small. [Chuckles]

Rainn  

Pete  

I mean, try doing that on a regular basis, right, I think that’s hard to do. And that’s a discipline, I think, to be committed to doing that.

Jared  

And it ties to something you said earlier, Rainn, which I think is important, where you said, you know, to make the world a better place—sometimes, I think with social media and our information, it can feel like the task is too big for me. And so, it kind of goes back to you saying like, you can start- You can spread joy, and be of service to someone in your backyard, your friend, your neighbor, your own family and that can be enough, that can be a really powerful force, rather than, “Oh, I can’t make an impact on a billion people. I can’t change the political system tomorrow. And so, I kind of don’t do anything.” And so, I think that sounds like it’s also part of the process, too, is fostering hope and joy can be—like Pete said, it just made me think of that. It’s a small experience, but it can be a really profound and powerful experience.

Rainn  

Part of my pillars of the spiritual revolution has to do with, it’s called “It’s Grassroots, Baby.” And we have to build grassroots. That’s the only way, that’s how Jesus started. You know, here’s a fisherman, here’s a farmer, here’s a prostitute. You know, here’s a cobbler…

Pete  

Which is, again, ignoring or working not with the system. It’s a non-system based change.

Rainn  

My favorite quote—and one of the sparks for my book—from Buckminster Fuller, “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”

Pete  

Right. And, you know—just a quick commercial here—this is the prophetic tradition of the Hebrew Bible. That’s what they did, that, I mean, according to Walter Brueggemann, who’s one of our favorite Old Testament theologians, but it’s the prophetic imagination, imagining a world different than the oppressive world that you live in. Not contributing to the oppressiveness but having—you know, you say you don’t have answers. Well, the prophets didn’t have answers either. They just cast a vision [Chuckles] for what it can look like and sort of pointed people in that direction. I think Jesus did that too. I think Jesus was trying to point people beyond the systems that we take for granted and don’t even question because they’re so baked into our DNA. And it’s, to me, that’s where joy is located. It’s located in like, you know, things can be different. And that gives hope, and that gives joy. Now, it’s hard to pull it off. But, you know, hopefully we got a few laps around the sun to try to make it work.

Rainn  

I talk a lot about the early Christian church because to me, there’s no greater example of a spiritual revolution, than the church in its first 300 years, before it became, kind of, institutionalized. And you spoke about Jesus—I mean, if you look at what Jesus actually did, and we all know the stories from the Bible. But there were plenty of people wanting a revolution, there were plenty of people wanting to overthrow Rome, right?

Rainn  

There were plenty of people saying that they were a new prophet, and that they had a new way, and trying to gain followers, but Jesus went around serving people and healing people, and feeding people, and talking about love and talking about God. And he didn’t play by any of those rules. He didn’t do what anyone else was doing at the time. And he started a movement that is now a billion plus strong, and transformed the world. It made a lot of mistakes along the way, but brought a hell of a lot of good as well. And when you look at those early Christian churches—and I need to remind my secular friends of this—in those first couple 100 years, for the first time in human history—the first time, guys!—and I know you’re, you’re in on this, but even you, I think need to hear this. Like for the first time in human history, you had meetings with people of all different races, and all different classes and different genders, all together, were sharing a common purpose. Which was remembrance of the Father, and remembrance of the Son. 

And you had slaves and Black people and Roman centurions, and you had, you know, you had rabbis and you had workmen and Phoenician sailors and Samaritans and they all gathered in those early churches, to pray to the father, and remember the legacy of Jesus. And that is incredibly beautiful and incredibly revolutionary. It’s one of the most revolutionary movements that’s ever graced the planet because never before then had humans gathered outside of their tribe. You just didn’t do it. Jews gathered with Jews, Samaritans gathered with Samaritans, Zoroastrians gathered with Zoroastrians, Romans centurions gathered with Roman centurions. They never left their specific class or strata. So, that is the spark. But so, how do we rekindle that in 2023? Well, let’s start at the basics. Let’s kind of spread love, be of service to the poor, build community, remind people of the glory of the father and the glory of the life hereafter, and work together in bringing diverse people together in service. 

Jared  

That’s a fantastic benediction. 

Pete  

I think Jared just converted to Christianity.

Jared  

Thank you so much, Rainn, for coming. I think that’s a great way to end our time, just with that wonderful vision of how we can kind of recapture that grassroots momentum toward love and hope and peace. So thank you so much for taking some time and for writing “Soul Boom.”

Rainn  

You guys, thanks. What a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for having me. You guys are doing God’s work. This is the goods right here, and so privileged to be a part of this conversation. Thank you.

Pete  

Thank you so much!

Jared  

And now for Quiet Time…

Pete  

…with Pete and Jared. 

Alrighty, so here we have our little Quiet Time. And you know, Jared, one thing that Rainn talked about is this issue of sacred secular divide. Right, so, I’m just wondering, is there a place in your life that maybe carries an enchantment, right, something that’s not necessarily a Christian thing or a spiritual thing, but something that is sacred yet mundane?

Jared  

Yeah, I’m trying to think. I don’t do well with space. So, I don’t feel like I’m—I’m not like a spatially aware person. 

Pete  

Oh…

Jared  

My brain works in like, concepts and words, like those are things I gravitate toward more than like a space because I know a lot of people will say things like being out in nature. Nature’s never been the thing for me. Being outside, I’m just like, “Ehh.” Even trying to cultivate it as like an enchanted space…

Pete  

Uh huh. You’re just a hollow shell of a person, then. Who just lives in their head.

Jared  

That’s basically what I’m saying. 

Pete  

Jared  

No, but what it is, then, for me is the first thing that came to mind are actually movies. 

Pete  

Yeah, okay. 

Jared  

And music. Like the arts are a place for me that, even things like going to the—for a while, every year on my birthday, I would go to the Philadelphia Museum of Art.

Pete  

Mhmm.

Jared  

And just spend the day by myself. And that, if we’re going to talk about space…

Pete  

Yeah.

Jared  

…probably the Philadelphia Museum of Art, but it is like movie theaters, even sitting on my couch watching a movie or the Oscars every year. Or there’s something about that space, if you will. That feels enchanted. 

Pete  

Almost like a… There’s a ritual.

Jared  

A ritual. 

Jared  

And the beauty of being able to tell stories that are bigger than us, that we can find ourselves in. Those things are kind of my place of enchantment. What about you?

Pete  

Yeah. Your polar opposite. I do like walking outside. [Chuckling] I just like, sometimes, you know, like, an early spring day when you go outside, you just feel the warmth and the breeze and it’s like, for me, it’s very life giving and…This whole sacred/secular divide, you know?

Jared  

Mhmm.

Pete  

Of course, we grew up with that, right? But the more I think about it, that’s just nonsense. 

Jared  

Yeah.

Pete  

Everything is, everything belongs, everything’s good. So, walking in the woods for me is, I like it. You know, I like rivers and streams and things like that. I don’t get much out of the beach. Even though my family loves it. I just tolerate it. I watch TV usually. So, but so, yeah, there are places like that where the divide just doesn’t exist.

Jared  

Yeah, in my tradition growing up the secular-sacred divide was used to sell products. Like, “You can’t go buy—No, don’t buy, you know, Rage Against the Machine, go buy P.O.D.” 

Pete  

Right.

Jared  

Like the Christian version of the sacred-secular divide was a way to sell “Christian products.” 

Pete  

Right. 

Pete  

Rather than secular humanism. 

Jared  

So…

Jared  

Well, speaking of hawking Christian products…

Pete  

Jared  

I want to talk about Rainn, mentioning Andre Gregory and this question of cynicism. You know, he says, if you become cynical, they win. So, I’d be curious what your relationship is to cynicism? Particularly because I think we have- We’re known a little bit for snarkiness-

Pete  

Jared  

Or sarcasm.

Pete  

Jared  

Which, I wonder what you think of, is what’s the relationship between that and cynicism?

Pete  

Jared  

Mhmm. 

Pete  

Right. And I think, to have no hope is to be cynical, right? I don’t… That’s not where I am, you know.

Jared  

Mhmm.

Pete  

And I just, the way I express my humor is just the way that it is. But those two things are not the same as far as I’m concerned.

Jared  

You would say you’re not cynical about things like, the state of the church or the future of the church.

Pete  

I’m not cynical about it. I mean, sometimes I’m discouraged. But other times, I’m not, you know, just depends on what data is coming into my life at that point. So-

Jared  

I have a very personalized view, again, because I run things through more of a filter of subjectivity than objectivity. 

Pete  

Mhmm.

Jared  

Like even you saying, no hope, I don’t know, hope for me is this objectivity word? Where, for me, I think of cynicism as a loss of care.

Pete  

Okay.

Jared  

Like where I just don’t care anymore. I’m not motivated to do anything on behalf of this cause or this thing because I don’t care anymore. 

Pete  

So, are you cynical? 

Jared  

No, absolutely not. Because for me, I think, what’s helped me is cultivate, maybe—I call it like a spiritual practice—of focusing on the process, not the result. To do my part, to have an integrity about what I care about, and to do what I can do and realize, like, it’s bigger than me. If things are going to change, I don’t have it in my control or power to enact broad change in anything, I need other people’s help. I need collaboration, I need to partner with other people who are doing it. So, the thing I can really focus on is just, what’s my contribution to things that I care about? So, for me, the way to stave off cynicism is just to care. To cultivate a passion and an interest in things that matter to me. And…

Pete  

Very activist.

Jared  

Right. 

Pete  

Way of looking at things, which we’ve talked about, but yeah.

Jared  

Yeah, right, right. 

Pete  

Okay. I mean, what do you think about Rainn saying something that, I think, struck me, but that spreading joy is the greatest act of service? And, I mean, does that resonate with you, Jared, does it resonate with Christian faith? Or just in general?

Jared  

I think so. I mean, isn’t it one of the fruits of the spirit? 

Pete  

Yeah. 

Jared  

And so I think that is certainly within the Christian tradition of being joyful, and spreading joy. Absolutely. So, yeah, I definitely think it is. And, I think, I think I want to be careful, though, because I feel like, again, my tradition can overuse that, where you have this spiritual bypassing or this toxic positivity.

Pete  

Right. Exactly right, yeah.

Jared  

Where it’s like, spreading joy? Yeah, we can’t come to church and be sad.

Pete  

Right.

Jared  

Even if you have sad things going on in your life and it’s worth grieving over and being upset, because “we have to be joyful.” And so, I just go back to like my megachurch days where it was, like, we’re trained, we’re literally training the ushers and stuff, it’s like, “Smiles on faces. No one wants to be in a sad, negative place.” We have to bring…That just feels fake.

Pete  

Right. 

Jared  

It doesn’t leave space for real expression. So, with that caveat, yes, I think it’s absolutely, we can bring joy and I think we should do that. But once it gets commercialized, or whatever that word is, when it gets caught up in the Christian church machine.

Pete  

Right.

Jared  

I think it can become harmful.

Pete  

It’s not joy at that point.

Jared  

Right. It’s that manufactured joy.

Pete  

Yeah. It’s manipulation when it’s a version like that.

Jared  

Yeah.

Pete  

Right. So, yeah, I agree. And, you know, it does resonate with Christian faith, I think as you’re saying, and it doesn’t have to be, as you know, some might say, the joy of evangelizing people. It’s just joy. You know, CS Lewis, “surprised by joy,” right. 

Jared  

Yeah.

Pete  

And I think that’s a good title. It is a surprise, you don’t manufacture it, just sometimes you have a feeling of joy. And to be a vehicle to spread joy to other people, is hopeful. It’s hard to be cynical when there’s joy, it’s hard to be politically polarized if you’re joyful, right?

Jared  

I was just gonna say that. I think in our culture, being joyful and bringing joy can be very subversive. In a dialogue of like, things are so bad and we have to start blaming people. And getting to the root of why it’s justified that I hate this group of people because they’re bringing down America. 

I think there is a place where joy is subversive, and it’s okay. Because sometimes I think in an activist community, you can almost feel guilty for being joyful. It’s like, “Well, what’s there to be joyful about? There’s all these major problems in the world.” And the only appropriate response is like grief and anger. And so, I think in both—I say “both” in like a polarized situation—I think in all areas, joy can be subversive in that way.

Pete  

Yeah.

Jared  

In a good way. Alright, well, before we finish, I want to ask kind of the big picture here. Because, you know, Rainn’s talking about “Soul Boom” and, you know, we’re coming from a Christian tradition, but he’s very much Ecumenical in maybe the biggest sense of this, kind of, interfaith like, that’s not really what’s important. We need everybody coming together for a common vision. How do you feel like that? Like, what would a soul boom look like for the Christian tradition? And I wrestle with that a little bit, because again, in my background, I have these like, little voices in my head that’s like, this is all bad and negative of, like, syncretistic interfaith, we’re losing our distinctiveness as Christians. But what does it look like for the Christian tradition to participate in what Rainn’s talking about?

Pete  

I think it looks more or less like what he’s talked about, you know, it’s just, I don’t think it’s…I don’t think we have to Christianize a spiritual revolution. That’s my—We don’t have to, with Christian trappings, with Christian institutions is just… I mean, okay, in a way, here’s the way of thinking about this from a Christian point of view. Wherever the revolution happens, it’s a God thing. 

Jared  

Mhmm.

Pete  

Whoever it happens from, even the most unlikely people—there even stories in the Bible about that. People like, “Hey, they’re not like us, Jesus. Make them stop.” “No, no, no. If they’re not against us, they’re for us,” you know. So, I think that the tendency to want to Christianize everything and put it within our box, part of the nature of the spiritual revolution is to examine those boxes.

Jared  

Mhmm. 

Pete  

Right, and how can we live together? And, you know, and I’ve seen a Muslim and Christian activists working together side by side, trying to revolutionize race relations in Philadelphia, for example. And I’m like, first of all, that’s joy-inspiring to me and that is a soul boom as far as I’m concerned, right?

Jared  

Mhmm, so the way I think about it individually, and this, I’ve had to wrestle with over the years, being around a lot of interfaith stuff, and frankly, just not caring anymore about any of that, about like, distinctives, and everything. But for me, I’ve thought about like, Christianity can be the engine, it doesn’t have to be the institution.

Pete  

Yeah.

Jared  

Like I can be motivated by my Christian faith but that can just be my personal motivation for why I do what I do. It doesn’t have to be, “now I have to institutionalize it and colonize it” basically. 

Pete  

Mhmm.

Jared  

So that everybody else has to be motivated by Christianity, it’s counter productive. The whole point is that it can be my motivator, but you can’t control other people’s motivations.

Pete  

What does it even mean to be motivated by Christianity?

Jared  

Well, it’s to be energized by principles and virtues and practices that are steeped in a Christian tradition.

Pete  

And some more than others. I mean, there…

Jared  

Right. 

Pete  

There isn’t one way, I think, of being Christian. 

Jared  

Right. 

Pete  

So-

Jared  

Yeah, I for me, again, it’s like it’s a self designation.

Pete  

Yeah.

Jared  

Like that is the engine for me, that’s what motivates these things. But I have a very curated understanding of what I mean by that. And it’s individualized to me, and another way of saying it is that Christian can just be the noun, it doesn’t have to be the adjective, right? It doesn’t have to be Christian-this, Christian-that, you just be a Christian, and then whatever you do—you know, it’s, we talk about it in music or art, I think when we had Propaganda on.

Pete  

Yeah.

Jared  

A long, many seasons ago. 

Pete  

Years ago, yeah. 

Jared  

He’s like, we can just be a Christian who is an artist. Why does it have to be “Christian music?” And so, that’s kind of how I see it, even in this space of justice and all the virtues that reign talked about is like those are just the virtues.

Pete  

And especially, I think, as, I mean, the world keeps shrinking. You know, and you can’t avoid other people. You can’t live- You really can’t live in an isolated village. 

Jared  

Pete  

No one can really, if you have internet access, you know. So it’s gonna take more thinking about what does it mean to be a Christian participating in a spiritual revolution that others, who aren’t Christian, have a lot of stake in?

Jared  

Right.

Pete  

And how do we do that?

Jared  

That’s well said.

Pete  

Right? So, to me, that’s not a problem. That’s actually a very interesting question to ponder. But then to go do it, is like the biggest change. I think that’s…it’s seeing, you know, the Muslim and the Christian, you know, talking about stuff and brothers.

Jared  

Mhmm.

Pete  

It’s like, okay, I get it, there’s something happening here that might not be happening in, you know, a church over here. Alright. That’s it. Thanks, folks.

Jared  

Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you want to support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just want to give a little money, go to www.TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/give.

Pete  

And, if you want to support us and want a community, classes, and other great resources, go to www.TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/join.    

Jared  

And lastly, it always goes a long way if you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show.    

Outro  

Thanks for listening to Faith for Normal People! Don’t forget, you can also catch the latest episode of our other show, The Bible for Normal People, wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for Normal People podcast team: Brittany Prescott, Savannah Locke, Stephanie Speight, Natalie Weyand, Steven Henning, Tessa Stultz, Haley Warren, Nick Striegel, and Jessica Shao.

Rainn  

Great question. I’m gonna close my blinds because I’m getting literally blinded.

Pete  

Jared  

Blinded by the light! 

Pete  

Jared  

It’s a perfect metaphor. 

Jared  

We love it.

Pete  

We love you too, Rainn. 

Rainn  

Oh!

Pete  

Yeah. 

Rainn  

That’s nice.

Pete  

Adorable.

Rainn  

Adorable?! 

Pete  

Rainn  

I find that demeaning. How dare you?! I’m leaving! 

Pete  

Yes. [wheezes]

Rainn  

Alright, this should work. 

Pete  

Oh, gosh, I’ll never hear the end of that…

Jared  

I forgot to tell you that was in his rider. He doesn’t like to be called adorable.

Pete  

Oh, really?

Jared  

Sorry. I’m so sorry.

Rainn  

Remember when everyone was saying “adorkable.”

Jared  

Oh…yeah, thanks for that.

Rainn  

That was like 10 years ago or so. 

Pete  

Yeah?

Rainn  

I’m so glad that went away.