Episode 120: Jack Levison - The Spirit, Wind, & Breath of God in the Bible
In this episode of The Bible for Normal People Podcast, Pete and Jared talk with Jack Levison about the spirit of God throughout the Bible as they explore the following questions:
- Is the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament?
- What does rûaḥ mean and why is it difficult to translate?
- What does it mean to be people of the spirit?
- Can everyone have the spirit of God or just some?
- What is the connection between the spirit of creation and the spirit of salvation?
- Do Jews have the same access to the Holy Spirit as Christians do?
- What is the significance of Pentecost?
- What is unique about the Christian faith if everyone has the spirit of God?
- How do we recognize the spirit of God?
- What is the paraclete?
- What has Jack learned about the spirit as he has gotten older?
- What are some implications of recognizing the spirit of God in every person?
Tweetables
Pithy, shareable, less-than-280-character statements from Jack Levison you can share.
- “If there is a message for the American church in a study of the spirit in the Old Testament, it’s to learn to breathe again.” @spiritchatter
- “When you read your Bible carefully, it shatters the categories you usually come to it with.” @spiritchatter
- “The language of filling [of the Holy Spirit] doesn’t necessarily mean taking something empty and pouring something into it… it can also mean taking what’s there and sort of frothing it up.” @spiritchatter
- “I think discerning the spirit is the great task of today.” @spiritchatter
- “People who know how to breathe and live into the daily miracle of life are people who are inspired.” @spiritchatter
- “The rûaḥ is never tidy.” @spiritchatter
Mentioned in This Episode
- Class: How to Read the Bible: Like Adults!
- Book: The Holy Spirit before Christianity
- Book: God the Spirit
- Book: A Boundless God
- Book: An Unconventional God
- Website: Jack Levison
- Patreon: The Bible for Normal People
[bg_collapse view="link-inline" expand_text="Read the transcript" collapse_text="Hide the transcript" ]
[Introduction]
0:00
Pete: You’re listening to The Bible for Normal People. The onlyGod-ordained podcast on the internet. I’m Pete Enns.
Jared: And I’m Jared Byas.
[Jaunty Intro Music]]
Pete: Heyfolks, welcome to another episode of The Bible for Normal People, beforewe get started, an announcement. Our second pay what you want course is comingup March 26th, 8:30 - 9:30PM Eastern Time, and it’s on reading theBible like adults. So, go to https://peteenns.com/ to register andhope to see you there.
Now, today’s topic is spirit, wind, and breath ofGod in the Bible, and our guest is Jack Levinson. Jack is, besides being agreat guy, he is a professor of Old Testament and he has written a lot aboutthe Holy Spirit before Christianity. In fact, his latest book is called TheHoly Spirit Before Christianity, sort of makes sense. And here’s a questionthat I have heard a lot, I’ve asked, and I get this question too. It’s aboutthe Holy Spirit, and do we find the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament as we doin the New, and I think the common sort of reflex answer for Christians is tosay, “well, hmm, dang if I know. No? I don’t think so. Not really?” You know, thingslike that. But Jack’s answer is “uh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes, a thousand timesyes.” Cause you see the terms spirit, wind, and breath are important. Spirit, wind,and breath – they’re actually the same Hebrew word, just translateddifferently. And it’s fine to translate that word differently in differentcontexts, but we shouldn’t miss the overlap of meanings between those words.That’s really the point. And with that, that’s sort of what Jack’s gonna talkabout. So, let’s go to the interview and let Jack speak for himself.
[Music begins]
Jack: There is a message for the American church;it’s to learn to breathe again. When we are feeling our breath deep within us,when we are allowing that breath to roll over our tongues in words of truth andintegrity, we are the people of the spirit. It’s not the dangly, shiny, thingsthat make us people of the spirit, it’s the deep ability to breathe and slowdown and let our souls catch up and be people of integrity.
[Music ends]
Jared: Well welcome, Jack, to this episode of TheBible for Normal People.
Jack: Thanks, good to be here.
Pete: Yeah, good to have you. Fantastic!
Jared: Well, you know, we think about, mostpeople associate the Holy Spirit with the New Testament, but you spent a longtime studying the spirit of God in the Old Testament as well. So just, as welaunch in, what got you interested in that? It’s kind of a peculiar topic. Whatgot you interested in that?
Jack: Well, it’s in a sense the New Testament.
Pete: [Laughter]
Jack: I mean, you can’t study the New Testamentwithout the Old Testament and with the Judaism that made Jesus and the apostlePaul who they were. So basically, trying to understand the New Testament islike beginning a book about three quarters of the way through. Can’t do it. So,I had to go to the Old and I had to go into Judaism, and I’ve loved it eversince.
Pete: Yeah. Well, I’m guessing that one reasonwhy people, why Christians really associate the Holy Spirit more with the NewTestament probably, I’m just riffing here, maybe you know better. It’strinitarian language. You know, we think of the trinity, a Holy Spirit as aseparate person, and we don’t have this separate person of the trinity in theOld Testament, I guess. And so maybe they just associate it more but, I guessyou’ve uncovered a lot more than just that, right?
Jack: Yeah, I actually had a book just come outin September called The Holy Spirit Before Christianity. And I actuallyargue in that book that five hundred years before Christianity, the Israelitessaw the Holy Spirit as a person.
Pete: Oh!
Jack: So, we’ve got a blow out of the water thesense that all of a sudden, the power of the Old Testament became a person inthe New Testament. Historically, it’s not true. Didn’t happen that way.
Jared: Well, maybe before we get into the idea ofpersonhood and these concepts with the spirit, maybe we can talk a little bitabout language, because, you know, we think of spirit and we use that inEnglish, but in the Hebrew Bible there’s a different word that’s used, or maybea few different words, and then in the New Testament, can you just give us alittle lay of the land so we can feel grounded in what we’re talking abouthere?
4:07
Jack: I would be happy to. So, there’s one wordin the Hebrew Bible called ruah, it’s sort of clearing your throat, ruah,and it gets translated into English as wind, or as breath, or as Spirit with acapital “S”, or as spirit with a “s”, but it’s one Hebrew word. That Hebrewword, and this is the killer, that Hebrew word occurs three hundred and seventy-eighttimes in the Hebrew Bible. That’s more than the word Sabbath, that’s more thanthe word shalom, that’s more than the word covenant, so a lot more than any ofthose words you have this Hebrew word ruah, but it gets sort of slicedand diced in English translations and just, they have to decide, does this meanbreath, or spirit, or wind, or Spirit with a capital “S”.? And what I’ve triedto suggest in a lot of my writing is that you can’t slice it and dice it thatway. That they belong together, so three hundred and seventy-eight times ruahoccurs in the Old Testament. And then in the New Testament of course, the wordis pneuma as in pneumatic drill or a person has pneumonia. That thatoccurs about three hundred and seventy-nine times, so the testaments are almostequally split between ruah in the Old and pneuma in the New. Andyet, they have to be translated all sorts of different ways in English.
Jared: So, maybe say a little more, because that’sinteresting the, what I heard you say was the word ruah is maybe,for us, we would say, well sometimes it means wind and breath, and sometimes itmeans spirit, but you’re saying maybe those lines aren’t as nice and neat andwhat do you mean by that? They’re saying that somehow the wind and the breathis a spirit of some sort, or how do you talk about that?
Jack: Yeah, it’s a great question and I could goon forever with it and I’ll try not to. But basically, very often you’llsee the word ruah, andpeople will say, oh, that’s the spirit because someone is prophesying, orthat’s the spirit because they’re doing a miracle. But when ruah is wind,that’s not the spirit. But then you get a problem. So like, inNumbers 11, you have all these elders who are prophesying when the spiritfrom Moses is put on them. That’s the ruah, and yet, it’snever clear whether it’s the spirit from Moses or the spirit from God.So, it’s kind of ambiguous. Later in the chapter, the ruah from the Lordcomes and deposits a bunch of quail. That ruah is clearlya wind, but it’s described as a ruah from the Lord andit delivers the quail. Which one is divine, and which one is merely natural?It’s actually flipped inthe book of Numbers so that the spirit as wind is actually God’s spirit. Samething at the Exodus, right?
Pete: Yeah.
Jack: When the blast of God’snostrils, and it’s translated in English as “blast”, that’s theword ruah. The blast of God’snostrils breathes, and the sea opens up. So, there isa case where ruah isspirit, wind, and breath all at once at the Exodus.
Pete: Yeah, so, alright. Let’s push a little bitfurther. You really can’t separate these terms. You do have distinctives, Imean, sometimes you just have the spirit of people or something? Is that, Imean, cause that word is used a lot, but it’s not always used in ways thatimplicate God.
Jack: Well, yeah. Not all are used in ways thatimplicate God, but it’s a little difficult to say the spirit in me is not God.
Pete: Right.
Jack: You know, that thebreath in me, and here’s, I think one of the most important things is the bookof Job. In the book of Job, he talks about the ruah, and he talksabout the neshama. So, the breath inme, the spirit in me, is what gives me life. And as long as those are inme, I’m gonna have integrity andI’m gonna speak thetruth. Is that the spirit of God from heaven, is that the human spirit, is thatjust breath, or is that something divine? And of course, it’s something divineand something deeply human. What I love about this notion of ruah is that itcuts across all the lovely dichotomies we use to make life tidy. The ruah is nevertidy. It’s probably why I spent so much time on it.
Pete: Yeah. And that’s why it takes time to sortof tease these meanings out, because -
Jack: Processing.
Pete: Yeah, I definitely connect withour tendency, maybe our modern western tendency influenced by the enlightenmentand blah, blah, blah, etcetera, etcetera.
Jack: [Laughter]
9:02
Pete: To categorize things and put things wherethey belong so to speak, but the ambiguity of ruah, the way youjust described it in Job is very interesting. It, to put it in otherlanguage, I may say something like, the presence of God in all of us.
Jack: Mm hmm, yeah.
Pete: Which is a good thing to remember, and to seethat in the Old Testament, not just, you know, after Pentecost or something,you know, maybe there’s something about this God that was always acting in wayswe’re familiar with in the New, also acting that way in the old.
Jack: The best theologians talk about making aconnection between the spirit of creation and the spirit of salvation and notdrawing a dichotomy or putting a wedge between them. And I tell ya, I tell youguys, if there is a message for the American church in a study of the spirit inthe Old Testament, it’s to learn to breathe again. It is the ability to breathe.When we are feeling our breath deep within us, when we are allowing that breathto roll over our tongues in words of truth and integrity, we are the people ofthe spirit.
Pete: Mmm.
Jack: It’s not the dangly, shiny things that makeus people of the spirit. It’s the deep ability to breathe and slow down and letour souls catch up and be people of integrity.
Jared: I want to go further with that, because youtalk about the sparkly, dangly things. Like, I would have grown up in atradition where the spirit of God was associated with the exceptional and theparticular sort of miraculous things and speaking in tongues, and what I hearyou saying, what Pete said is the spirit of God is the presence of God in eachof us. That’s a very democratizing universal experience, and so in thesame way I would’ve grown up thinking, you know, the spirit of God comes uponyou when you become a Christian. And it sounds like with this Old Testamentblurring of breath and spirit it’s harder to make the case that way. Is thatthe implications of what we’re saying?
Jack: Yeah, you said it really well, in fact. It made mefeel like I explained myself okay, yes! You said it exactly as it should besaid.
Jared: Could I just clarify then, so you’re sayingthat the Holy Spirit then is in everyone in this sense.
Jack: Yes. And no, I don’t think you need thecaveat “in this sense.” So, if you read the book of Genesis, you have Joseph.If you read the book of Exodus, you have Bezalel, Oholiab,and the artisans both male and female who have ruah inthem and then you move into Numbers and the ruah bringsthe quail. I mean, throughout the Old Testament, all the way into the book ofDaniel where I think the word occurs twelve times. This is a person withexceptional ruah in him. This is not the spirit of salvationversus the spirit of creation. They are one and the same. Let’s throw away thedichotomies. Let’s throw away should it be a capital “S” or a small “s”. Is itGod’s spirit or the human spirit? Let’s stop doing that. I think the way yousaid it was beautiful, Jared. So, it’s all one and thesame. And we need to stop saying, oh, they’re a Christian, they havethe spirit; they’re not a Christian, they must not have the spirit when wehave an entire testament telling us - not true.
Pete: But I think, I mean, I completely resonatewith what you’re saying. I’m just trying to imagine what peoplewould say in response.
Jack: Well I know what they say in response.
Pete: Yeah, I’m sure you do. Well, actually, I’dlike, maybe, in a minute you can sort of offer some of those to help peoplewho, you know, maybe we’re not gonna get toall those objections and what Jared and I are thinking, but people do say, youknow, I’ve got the Holy Spirit and therefore I can interpret the Bible right orwhatever. But there is language like that, isn’t that, in theNew Testament, at least it seems like it. People receiving the Holy Spiritin a special kind of way.
Jack: Absolutely. I think there is receiving, Ithink there is receiving the Holy Spirit to do particular things in thecommunity in the world. I think there is that, but the language of fillingdoesn’t necessarily mean taking something empty and pouring something into it.The language of filling can also mean taking what’s there and sort of frothingit up, so I think of Pentecost. Perhaps they receive the spirit. I mean,it sounds like that. Jesus seems to suggest that they receive power from onhigh, but I don’t think that means what they did as human beings prior to thattime is completely excluded. I think there is the movement of spirit or evenreceiving further spirit that combines in such a way that it combusts intosomething really powerful.
Pete: Yeah.
13:55
Jack: So, let me give you the example atPentecost. They, they’re filled with the Holy Spirit. This is the promise ofthe father and what do they say? They speak the praiseworthy acts of God,which, you know, as you two know, needs nothing more than the mighty actsof God from creation all the way up to Jesus. They didn’t learn anything newwith the gift of the spirit. The gift of the spirit enabled them to communicatewhat they had studied.
Pete: Mm hmm.
Jack: So, it’s not like they, what theysaid was given to them. What they said they had studied to learn and then thespirit communicated it to a multi-cultural group of people. Does that makesense?
Pete: Yeah, it does. Maybe it’s a little bit,if I’m tracking you correctly, it’s a little bit analogous to saying it’snot like God’s presence isn’t with anyone until Jesus, even though that’s maybea different kind of “filling,” a different kind of presentation. Maybe aclearer, or bigger, or more meaty kind of presentation of God’s presence. Doesthat make sense?
Jack: Yeah, it does.
Pete: But not really, does it?
[Laughter]
Jack: Well, no it does. No, I agree with you andI’m not -
Pete: It isn’t like God’s not around and cares orloves people until Jesus, right? And we say that about the Holy Spirit.Like, the Holy Spirit is really not, maybe acouple of prophets, but that’s about it. You know, and we have to wait for Pentecost, now everybody getsto have the spirit.
Jack: Yeah, it’s really, it’s amazing watchingChristians either not read the Old Testament at all when it comes tothe Spirit or read the Old Testament and place some of thesecategories that can’t possibly fit. So, one of them is, oh, the spiritcame intermittently in the Old Testament, butit’s permanent in the New. Of course, then, you readthe Old Testament, and most texts don’t suggest it’s intermittent atall. The Messiah of Isaiah 11, the architects of the tabernacle,Daniel - three generations he had ruah in him. So,no. It’s not intermittent in the Old Testament. The other kind offormula they use is it’s a power in the Old Testament, but a person in theNew.
Pete: Mmm.
Jack: No, it’s a person in the Old Testament as well.So, I think Christians, I think what we often do is we don’t read the OldTestament to begin with. But if we read it, we read it with categories thathave determined the story from the start. And I’m not sure that’ssuper helpful.
Pete: No.
Jared: Yeah, I agree. I agree. One other thing,just because this is my only other text that may need some explanation in mymind, is in John where Jesus says sort of, no, no, listen – you want me to goaway because when I go, someone else is coming who will guide you into alltruth. And is that a similar kind of thing? I’m just trying to figure outhow to put that into this narrative here.
Jack: Well that’s a really good question andJohn is the hardest one to put into this narrative. Not so much from those passages asin chapter seven where he says, “as of yet, there was nospirit.” The spirit was not yet given. And so, you say, well, the spirit wasnot yet given, that kind of blows my whole thesis, doesn’t it? Except for thefact that if you go back a few chapters to Nicodemus inchapter three and the Samaritan woman in chapter four,he’s telling them they can have the spirit. So, if chapter seven saysthe spirit was not yet given, it’s a little hard to understand theconversations Jesus is having that basically says the spirit can be yours, itcould bubble up, it could spring up. Here’s what thiswonderful Pentecostal theologian called Frank Macchia -
Pete: Mm hmm.
Jack: Teaches out at Vanguard University. Frankdid, he did a response to one of my books, and in it, he said, we bask in therevivalist glow of the spirit, but that doesn’t mean we have to suggest thateverything was dark before we received the spirit, that everything outside ofour reception is dark. And I think sometimes as Christians, we feel that weneed to make everything else so dark, so that our reception of the spirit issort of the defining moment.
Pete: Yeah, special. Yeah, better.
Jack: By making everything else dark, we make ourslighter. It’s sort of the bully mentality, right? If we could push everybodyelse down into the dirt, then we’re fine.
Pete: Yeah, that’s the history of theology.
Jack: [Laughter]
I’m not a theologian.
Pete: Sorry, that’s the cynicism coming through,okay, anyway.
Jared: But I think that’s, I, maybe speaking tothat, because I do think that’s fair. I would almost say it, cause I tendto maybe psychologize this more. I think it’s, there’s a fear ofChristianity not being unique, and so, if you create these common threadsof, hey, the spirits presence is all over the Old Testament as well, it leavesthe question of okay, then what’s unique about the Christian story?
18:43
Jack: That’s exactly the kindof question I receive. Well, it’s usually put in terms of can Jews havethe Holy Spirit? And of course, it’s a one answer question for me –yes. And it does separate me from many people. Now, I’ve been on evangelicalradio shows where the people have been very gracious and kept askingthe question to see, and they really wanted to know. But, I think,and you all know this, when you read your Bible carefully, it shatters thecategories you usually come to it with.
Pete: Mm hmm.
Jared: Mm hmm.
Jack: And so, what I’ve done isbasically read my Bible about a topic that’s largely neglected – the HolySpirit – and it shattered my categories. I thought, oh my gosh, the spirit isin everyone. The spirit is in every, the spirit is there in the seventeenthHebrew word of Genesis 1, you know, hovering over the chaos. And the spiritis very much there doing an awful lot of things and inspiring an awful lotof people before Jesus ever came onto the scene. Which I, as a Methodist, isgreat for me, cause I believe in prevenient grace, I believethat God goes before us. And there’s a wonderful missiologist, LesslieNewbigin, who basically said our job in mission is to see where the spiritis already at work and get ourselves there.
Pete: Hmm.
Jack: I love that image ofliving in the spirit, it’s not what I have, it’s the spirit’s working outsideof me and it’s my job to discern and look and be alert and get myselfthere.
[Music begins]
[Producers groupendorsement]
[Music ends]
21:25
Jared: So,that kind of does lead me into what I was, my next question, whichwas, Pete mentioned earlier, you know, some people think, well, Ihave the spirit of God, so when I read the Bible, I can trust my interpretationbecause the spirit is there. And you mentioned,you know, Newbigin’s “see where the spirit of God is.” How do wediscern that, you know? I think of, you were just mentioning John,where Jesus kind of says the spirit kind of goes where it wishes, it blowswhere it wants. And so, it’s this weird, there’s this wildness to it,but there’s also, if it’s too wild, how do we discern then? Have youcome across as, now we’re kind of moving from the academic study of this tosome practical things, but have you found ways to talk aboutthat?
Jack: Ihave. I’m not sure they’re adequate. I think discerning the spirit is thegreat task of today. So, I think, there’s a scholar called Michael Welker,who wrote a book called God the Spirit, and he, believe it or not,was looking at 1 Kings 22 in the story of Micaiah ben Imlah, aprophet -
Pete: Oh my,yeah.
Jack: And hegave criteria for discerning the spirit, and one of them is the consensus isnot truth. So, that if everybody is agreeing on something, that does not makeit true. But often, something is true because it goes againstthe consensus. And this is from the story in 1 Kings 22 of Micaiah benImlah. Something else that I think is a discernment is, does it cost youanything to believe what you believe, or is it something that sort ofestablishes you in the status quo? I’d be suspicious of anything that makes uscomfortable in the status quo. So, consensus is not truth, the statusquo is not the spirit. And I, and Jared, you said this earlier, I do notthink the spirit should be associated with the spectacular and theexceptional. I think that is really a problem of interpretation. I mean,the only reason we know about speaking in tongues, essentially, is that theCorinthians got it wrong. They made a mock of it.
Pete: Mmm.
Jack:Otherwise, Paul would never have touched it. We only know about it because theymade it more spectacular than it should’ve been - the experience. So,I also think a principle of discernment should be spectacular is notthe spirit. Consensus is not the spirit. The status quo is not thespirit, and the spectacular is not the spirit.
Pete:Yeah.
Jack: Ithink the spirit is found in far quieter corners of our world.
Pete: Wellalso, I mean, I agree with what you’re saying and not to play games with words,but in a way the breath of life is rather spectacular when we stop to thinkabout it, but we know what we mean. The non-ordinary, so to speak, and, youknow, the spirits presence. I mean, the older I get, the more I see thewisdom in what you’re saying, Jack, with the quiet places and whenyou’re left alone to think through things in the presence of God in yourmidst is, that’s good enough. That’s actually pretty good. It’s, you don’t needthe firecrackers and things like that.
Jack: And,you know, frankly, in today's political world, I worry about peoplewho have the firecrackers and then don’t see the injustice aroundus.
Pete:Hmm.
Jack: Youknow, I’ve probably become more critical of Pentecostals than I wouldhave been, maybe, four years ago because I think some of the discernment,much of the discernment has to do with, again, our world, not my experience.
Pete:Yeah.
Jack: Andyou know, another thing you said, as you get older, you know, I’m sixty-threenow, and I’ve had a couple ablations from my heart, and that sort of, plenty ofphysical things, and one of the great miracles of life is that my heartsometimes beats steady -
Pete:Yeah.
Jack: And that Ican feel my breath coming into my body, and sometimes, I say thingsthat actually matter to people. Those are real miracles and tosuggest that something has to be exceptional to be miraculous soundssometimes a little young to me.
Pete: Yeah,right. Well can I, you mentioned John, and I’m really intrigued by what yousaid about the spirit being given earlier on in John, at least the promise ofthat spirit being given earlier on. But Jesus calls the spirit thecomforter, so what do you think of that?
Jack: Aw, Ifeel terrible breaking down all these notions, but obviously the comforter is-
Pete:Somebody has to do it.
26:05
Jack: Well,yeah, but it’s not really kind of my nature. I guess maybe it’s more my naturethan I want to admit. The Greek word, as you well know even as you ask thequestion, is parakletos, paraclete, which means something called alongside. And it couldmean everything from a comforter, to an advocate in a courtroom, toan angelic messenger who like the angel that interprets things for Daniel wouldbe parakletos, the people at Job,when standing with Job are bad parakletores.So, the word can mean comfort, but I tend to think that’sprobably not the best translation in the Gospel of John where the spirit comesand stands alongside a beleaguered community that is in desperate need of helpas it’s being increasingly pushed onto the margins. So, I don’t think comfortis the word, the spirit of truth leads them into all the truth, which I thinkmeans leads them into the truth of what Jesus said and did, so it sort of leadsthem back to the past. So, it comes alongside them. Pete, you’re a teacher!What’s our best moment? Our best moment is when we come alongside a student andhelp them to understand what they’re struggling with, and at the end they lookat you and they say, oh! That’s what I think the Holy Spirit is in the Gospelof John, standing alongside the community, helping them to understand whatthey haven’t yet understood about Jesus.
Pete:Well if you were, if you were translating that for a Bible translation, wouldyou use a different word or a cluster of words ratherthan comforter?
Jack:I wouldn’t use advocate. I tend to cheat and take the cowardly way anduse paraclete. I just transliterate it because I don’t -
Pete: [Laughter]
Whenin doubt...
Jack:Yeah, when in doubt, transliterate, right? Baptism, paraclete. But I don’tthink, you know, there’s not a lot in the Greek Old Testament to help us withthat. So, I think allowing the paraclete’s activities in probably abetter way to understand the paraclete than to try and find atranslation. Advocate, advocate is okay, but it’s soimpersonal.
Pete:Yeah.
Jack:Comforter is far too passive for what's going on in John’s gospelwith the conflict between light and dark.
Pete:Right.
Jack:So, I’ll cheat. I’ll take the coward’s way out – paraclete –there ya go.
Pete: Soundslike that’s an article -
Jack:Do you have a better, you’ve been asking the question. Do you have a betteridea?
Pete:No! I don’t. I mean, I was thinking of bystander, but that doesn’t sound goodeither. Somebody who stands by you.
Jack:No, that would be spectator.
Pete:That would be Pete’s really bad translation of the NewTestament.
Jack:Well, I’ve got no translation at all.
Pete:Yeah, well. That’s cause you’re smart enough to know you can’t haveone.
Jack:No, I think it’s because I’ve got no translation at all.
Pete:Okay, because, I mean, that’s a passage people know something about.They’ve heard it, it’s rather common. The other one Jared mentioned before,alluding to the story of Nicodemus where, you know, they’re going back on thislittle pharisaical back and forth where Jesus says you have to be born fromabove and Nicodemus says, well how does that happen? Do I climb back in? Imean, I don't understand. He’s just, you know, egging him onto a conversationor a debate, but then Jesus has that line that really comes out of nowhere in asense, at least, you know, from a casual reading of it where, you know, thespirit blows where it wills. And like, what, I mean, what sense do you have ofwhat Jesus is trying to communicate in that story to this figure Nicodemus bysaying that?
Jack:Well I think, first of all, it’s a wonderful play on ruah, that thespirit is wind, breath, and spirit all at once, so the ruah blowswhere it wills like in the Old Testament, back to the Old Testament wherethe ruah blew from the east and brought quail or wherethe ruah moved among the people. So, I think it givesfreedom to the spirit. I think helpful there is later on in thechapter where it says the spirit, the pneuma in this case, thespirit is given without measure. And I think what’s happening in John 3 and 4,and you gotta take these as pairs, as you know. You got Nicodemus andthen the Samaritan woman. He comes, it he says he comes at night, butI think it means he comes at dawn, like someone seeking a rabbi, but that’s anotherstory. So, he comes in the late watches of the night and she comes atmid-day, but both of them, notice, are offered the spiritwithout measure. Nicodemus is offered the spirit wind that can blow as it will,and she’s offered the spirit springing up from the earth. So, what I love aboutJohn 3 and 4 is the immeasurable gift of the spirit blowing where it wills,bubbling up from the ground. And I think that’s a lot of what's goingon there.
Jared:Well, could we, just cause I want to make sure I’m understandingand just for our listeners too. This interplay, so you’ve been going back tothe Old Testament where it seems to be, there’s not a clear line between wind,breath, and spirit. What is the, what would you say is the relationship? Isthat a purposeful ambiguity that we, there isn’t a distinction and that thepeople of the Old Testament wouldn’t have made a distinction between thosethree things?
31:19
Jack: Yeah,you really, you hit it again right on the nose. I think there’s deliberateambiguity. I think there’s a play on the ambiguity and so they don’t want todivide between God’s breath and our spirit. It’s sort of the English languagethat’s weaker than Hebrew, and so we have to divide. We have tosay, oh my gosh, is this spirit, breath, wind, or Spirit with a capital“S”? And they use ruah and I think they play, they playon the ambiguity in Genesis 1, the ruah hovering. Is thatGod’s breath? Is that the wind? Is that the spirit? And so, you’ll have the NIVtranslating Genesis 1 as Spirit with a capital “S”, and the liberal NRSVtranslating it as the wind of God. Is it a wind? Is it a spirit? Yes. Itis.
Pete:[Chuckles]
Jack: And Ithink, I think, Jared, you hit the nail on the head. Deliberate ambiguity, andit’s why every time I try to leave writing on the spirit, I keep being drawnback in because I love the ambiguity because the older I get, themore ambiguous life seems to become.
Jared:Hmm.
Pete: Yeah.I mean, it’s interesting the way you just put that, at least the way I’mputting these pieces together. The ambiguity, I mean, it may be more for us anambiguity than it is for them. This is just where my thinking is right now,because they, the ancients didn’t have these categories that we have.So, they have, you know, I mean, I’m just, again, I may just be totallymaking this up, tell me I’m crazy. But, you know, wind and breath and spirit, Imean, the wind that comes out of me when I breathe -
Jack: Uhhuh.
Pete: Andthe wind that’s around me, well, how is that coming about? This is maybe adivine breath, a divine wind, and it’s the spirit of God which is a spirit inus. And, you know, it’s maybe like one ofthose Venn diagrams. You know, you’ve got this, a lot of overlapbetween these terms and the need to distinguish them is our need, it’s nottheir need. They just didn’t think that way. They thought in a more, like, evenevolutionary biologists who were Christians who were thinking about theinterrelatedness, interconnectedness of all of life; maybe they werealready there. They were thinking along those lines holistically aboutcreation, and not segmenting and diving into parts.
Jack: Iagree. The people I respect, the people I love, the woman I live withnow... I mean, my wife of thirty-seven years.
[Laughter]
Pete: Yourwife? I was gonna ask.
[Laughter]
Jack: Ithappens to be woman I live with now. I mean, I pray with her, I livewith her. I work. She has an office at SMU just like, right down the hall fromme and I wouldn’t begin to say, oh, wow, that was the Holy Spirit. Oh, no, thatwas your human spirit at work. Oh, you were just breathingthen.
Pete:[Laughter]
Jack: Iwould never think to take the people whom I love and respect the mostand try to divvy up whether it’s, is it breath in her, is it windaround her, is it her small spirit or the big spirit, that would do her a greatdisservice. It’s the whole of it. I mean, the older she gets, the more I see amelding between the divine and human in her life.
Pete: Mmm.
Jack: Theless I can detect any edge between her human inclinations, and we’reMethodists so we talk about sanctification. This is sanctification. Ilive with a woman who is like that for whom it would be an insult to try tosay, oh, you experienced the spirit just then! When she is in the spirit evenwhen she is doing very ordinary quotidian things.
Jared: Hmm.So yeah, maybe you could speak to this, because I, I mean, you know, mybackground is more in philosophy and ethics, and I think there’s a lot ofethical implications of what you’re saying. So, maybe, can you just share a fewof those for your own life as you’ve studied this in the text, what aresome of the practical out-workings? You shared a little bit of how you seeyour wife in a new way in that, but are there other ethical implications ofequality or other things that you’ve noticed?
Jack: Oh my,yes. But I’m not sure I’m your best example. She’s a much better example. Butthe first thing I would say is, people who know how to breathe are often peoplewho have virtue. So, I think people living in the ruah momentby moment are people I have learned to respect. Quieter spirits which areinspired spirits. So, number one, I think -
Pete:Christian or not.
Jack:Christian or not, yeah.
Pete: Right,yeah.
35:45
Jack: Peoplewho breathe, yeah. Not Christians who breathe. People who know how to breatheand live into the daily miracle of life are people whoare inspired, in my opinion. Secondly, people who have a hunger toknow Jesus. I know this sounds trite, but all through the New Testament, andI’ve done some pretty serious work on the New Testament. What I seetime and again is that the spirit inspires them to go backto Jesus. So, in the book of Acts, they’re moving back to understand Jesusin the light of the Old Testament. The book of John, I think the promise isleading into the truth of Jesus through the Old Testament. So, people who arenot hungry to worship necessarily, or hungry to do things, but reallystill have a hunger to know Jesus, I think is really important. So, peoplewho breathe, people who want to know Jesus, who study Jesus – I think peoplewho are willing to live in community because the spirit transcends anotherdichotomy; transcends the individual and the communal, so people who arecommitted to community. And then finally, people who are very committed tojustice. To working in the world, to overturn the status quo. We cannot bepeople of Pentecost unless we take seriously that the slaves willprophesy, that the young women will prophesy, that the old men will dream dreams,that the people on the margins, the people excluded – these are the people ofPentecost. And so, I think maybe those four things, and I can’t even rememberwhat they are because I can’t repeat them. But those are four signsof the spirit, you know, I think: breathing, yearning to learn aboutJesus, living in community, and really wanting to upend our world.
Pete: Wellthat is a great note to end on, and that’s a very practical set ofpointers for us. So, just in closing then, do you have anything in theworks at this moment, or are there places where people can reach you? Are youactive on social media or are you more, like, in your cave?
Jack: Oh no,I have a very old website. My dog was on the website and she died two yearsago, which tells you how old my website is.
Pete:Yeah.
Jack: But Igot some projects, I had the book Holy Spirit Before Christianity comeout in September, and I have a book coming out with Baker Academic, which Ireally love, called A Boundless God: The Spirit According to the OldTestament.
Pete:Hmm.
Jack: Andthen later in the year, I have another Baker Academic book, which I justsubmitted to them in October, called An Unconventional God: The HolySpirit According to Jesus, and those are kind of companion books. ABoundless God, and then An Unconventional God. And you can tellfrom that title that I really, I really think understandingthe Holy Spirit through the life of Jesus changes how we understandGod.
Pete: Hmm,yeah.
Jack: Sothat’s a whole fresh approach that will be out probably in October, Ithink. So those projects are on the docket.
Jared:You’ve done a lot of thinkin’ about this spirit thing.
Pete: TheHoly Spirit must be with you.
Jack: Uh, I,I, -
Pete: Or didI just miss the whole point of the lesson?
[Laughter]
Jack: No, I,yeah, the Holy Spirit I think is in conversations like this.
Jared: Alright,we should probably end this before Pete puts his foot in his mouthagain.
Pete:[Laughter]
Jack:No!
Jared:[Laughter]
Jack: I amso glad to be here with you guys, this is really -
Pete: Yeah,it’s been great Jack, thanks so much, we appreciate it!
Jack: Thankyou.
Jared:Thanks so much.
Jack:Bye bye.
Pete:See ya.
[Musicbegins]
Pete: Hey,thanks for listening folks, be sure to check out Jack’s latest book, the HolySpirit Before Christianity, and don’tforget - How To Read The Bible Like Adults,our live, pay what you want course, coming March 26th, 8:30 PMEastern Time, input https://peteenns.com/. Thanksfor listening folks and see ya next time!
[Musicends]
[/bg_collapse]