Episode 121: Pete and Jared - Pete and Jared Talk About the Afterlife

In this episode of The Bible for Normal People Podcast, Pete and Jared talk about what the Bible has to say about the afterlife as they explore the following questions:

• How did the biblical authors understand the afterlife?
• Is the New Testament’s main focus on the afterlife?
• What does the Old Testament say about Sheol?
• What is salvation in the Old Testament?
• What was considered a life well lived in ancient times?
• How does the idea of the afterlife justify God?
• Where is a firm concept of the afterlife first mentioned in the Bible?
• How is apocalyptic literature related to the afterlife?
• What can ancient history tell us about the development and understanding of the afterlife?
• What is the apocalypse according to the New Testament?
• Did Paul believe what other Jews at the time believed or were his ideas original?
• What is the difference between resurrection and the afterlife?

Tweetables

Pithy, shareable, less-than-280-character statements from Pete and Jared you can share. 

• “For a lot of the Old Testament, it’s kind of silent on what happens when you die. It’s more interested… in your legacy living on in the life of your kids.” @jbyas
• “Resurrection and afterlife are related but they’re not the same thing.” @peteenns
• “Anything about eternal conscious torment when you die is by nature speculative and you’re outside the realm of biblical studies at that point.” @jbyas
• “There’s no real clear notion of afterlife, at least nothing that we want to be a part of in the Old Testament.” @peteenns
• “The Bible doesn’t get to constrain the questions we ask.” @jbyas
• “It’s legitimate and it’s appropriate and it’s healthy and important, actually, to ask questions that the Bible isn’t equipped to even ask.” @jbyas

Mentioned in This Episode

• Author: Jon D. Levenson
• Patreon: The Bible for Normal People

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 [Introduction]

0:00

Pete: You’re listening to The Bible for Normal People. The onlyGod-ordained podcast on the internet. I’m Pete Enns.

Jared: And I’m Jared Byas.

[Jaunty Intro Music]

Jared: Welcomeeveryone to this episode of The Bible for Normal People. Today we’regonna talk about the afterlife.

Pete:Hmm, death.

Jared:What happens when we die?

Pete:Death.

Jared:Yeah. But, you know…

Pete:This is the Bible for Normal People and normal people die.

Jared:Because when you get up on a Monday morning, you really need that pick me up –

Pete:[Laughter]

Jared:That real smile on your face. What better to do that than to talk about yourdeath?

Pete:Yeah. Actually, this is my request. Jared’s gonna talk me off a ledge here,case I’m like, 59, and every joint in my body is rebelling at this moment, andI’ve been trying to, I’ve been trying, I think I can avoid death if I try hardenough.

Jared:[Laughter]

Pete: Ithink I have a plan. It involves the gym, and a juicer, and I think I canprobably make it.

Jared:Man, every infomercial producer in the world is loving you right now.

Pete: [Intypical announcer voice]

Thisepisode brought to you by…

Jared:[Laughter]

That’sright.

Pete: Nodeath fruit juice.

Jared: Ohman.

Pete: Ohgosh, alright. Well, ya know, it is a topic though.

Jared: Well,I hate to break it to you, cause you are gonna die.

Pete:We’re all gonna die.

Jared: Soit does affect us all, and we want to just look at  -

Pete:Ugghhhh. Gosh.

Jared:What does the Bible have to say about it? And I think we might be surprised –

Pete:About dying or about the afterlife?

Jared:About the afterlife.

Pete:Yeah, that’s okay.

Jared:But we might be surprised by what is says and doesn’t say.

Pete:Yeah.

Jared: Ithink.

Pete:Yeah, I think so. Once you start looking for it, it’s like, wait a minute….

[Laughter]

Jared:Yeah! Well, I can just, I can share. Maybe we can test our, how we grew up, andyou can tell me if this is similar for you. But for me, growing up, it was apretty much a foregone conclusion that Christianity, that the Bible taught thatwhen you die, you become this soul. Your body stays in the ground, your soul issent up to heaven, and then you’re just with God. I think, when I was reallyyoung, I pretty much just assumed I was singing hymns, I guess?

Pete: Mmhmm.

Jared:Forever? In this like, looked eerily like the church I grew up in.

Pete:[Laughter]

Jared:And that’s just pretty much what happened when you died. That was theafterlife.

Pete: Itwasn’t a big blue background with fluffy clouds?

Jared:No, it was like red scratchy cushions and –

Pete: Itis interesting. What do we think of, right -

Jared:Right.

Pete: Withafterlife and I wonder what ancient people thought of, you know? We do havesome clues in the Bible, I guess. But yeah, it’s like, I mean, it is afterlifewe’re talking about, so it’s basically, I guess postmortem something, right?

Jared:Right.

Pete: Soafter life and you know, things like resurrection come into that, into playwith that, but I think we’re really not talking about whether any of that issomething that is real or true, right? We’re just thinking out loud herereally, about how the Bible presents it, and then thoughts that a lot of peopletoday have about this issue, which, you know, cause your point I guess, theBible doesn’t really nail it.

[Laughter]

Ya know?

Jared:Right.

Pete:It’s almost like it’s not even the main point, which is ironic, right? Becausewe’re raised to think the whole point of this is to “go to heaven when you die.”

Jared:Right.

Pete: AndI’m not so sure, in fact, I am sure that that’s not really the central issue inthe New Testament at least. And certainly not in the Old Testament.

Jared:Right, well let’s start with the Old Testament because we have various notionshere of what happens when we die. And again, I think it’s, I think there’ssomething I can sense hesitancy in your voice and in mine to even talk aboutthis because it’s not that central -

Pete: No,it’s cause I’m dying.

Jared: Inthe Bible.

[Laughter]

Pete:[Laughter]

Jared:It’s not that central in the Bible, so even, it is a little strange because itwas so central for my, for me, thinking, growing up of –

Pete:Yeah.

Jared:What Christianity is all about, but the more you read the Bible, you realize,oh, it’s not really, it’s not really a thing.

Pete:Yeah, and my students are shocked when we just talk about it. I say matter offactly:

There’sno real clear notion of afterlife, at least nothing that we want to be a partof in the Old Testament.

What?? It’s notthere?

Yeah, it sort ofdeveloped.

Itdeveloped?! What do you mean it developed?? Isn’t the Bible all supposed to bethe same thing cause it’s God’s word?

Well,yeah, I guess, whatever. But, the fact remains, right? That we don’t have muchto go on. We have that place Sheol -

Jared:Yeah, so let’s talk about Sheol.

Pete:Yeah. Sheol, which is like, the afterlife word in the Old Testament.

Jared: Mmhmm, right. Where does it show up?

Pete: Allover the place. Yeah, I mean, it’s common, but the thing is that it seems tonot have one clear notion of what it is, you know? It’s just the place, it’ssort of like Hades in Greek. It’s the abode of the dead, it’s just where yougo. So, there’s some sort of postmortem something.

Jared: Mmhmm. But it’s like a neutral zone, right?

Pete:Yes. It’s not hell.

Jared:Right.

4:52

Pete:It’s not heaven. That notion is essentially foreign to the Old Testament, whichis sort of a wakeup call right there, you know? It’s like, whatever ishappening in our Bible, if there are any shifts in the New Testament, and Ithink there are, but they’re also shifts in Judaism later on. It’s a developingnotion, but back in the old days, it’s –

Jared:Where do we, do you know where the phrase Sheol comes from? Like, what does itrepresent, or what, you know, cause we call it Hades, but Hades is a Greekterm, so that kind of developed within Greek culture. What’s Sheol?

Pete: Imean, in terms of where it comes from, to be frank, I don’t know and I’m notsure if anybody knows. You see foot notes in study Bibles that say things like,yeah, this is the place where dead people go, and that’s about it. But, youknow, you catch glimpses of it in various places, like Psalms for example. Orhey, you know, you don’t want me to die do you, oh Lord, cause in Sheol no onepraises you. So, it’s a place where, you know, it’s not singing harps. Youknow, singing with harps and clouds or something.

Jared:Right.

Pete:It’s a place where, it’s like you don’t have your normal existence. You know,it’s like -

Jared:Yeah, you don’t have a lot of agency or –

Pete: No,exactly.

Jared:Yeah. Right, right.

Pete: You’rejust floating somewhere.

Jared:Yeah, you’re just floating. I guess is what I always pictured it as.

Pete:Right, right.

Jared:Hmm. Well, and then, so we have Sheol, which we see in various parts of the OldTestament. And it’s often in more, wouldn’t it be more in poetic things I thinkof, like in the Psalms I think of Sheol quite a bit, like Psalm 139.

Pete:Yeah.

Jared:Even if I go down to, I think it’s one of those verses in 139. Even if I godown to Sheol, you know, God is still there.

Pete:Right.

Jared:So, we have that as a notion.

Pete:Which is already a diversity in Sheol, someplace, it’s almost like God isabsent form you completely and yet other places, right -

Jared:God isn’t.

Pete: Godisn’t, so again, it’s like, maybe they’re working it out themselves.

Jared:Right.

Pete:Maybe they’re thinking about it. Like, what happens to, no seriously, whathappens to us when we die?

Jared:[Laughter]

Pete: I’mnot kidding now, you know?

Jared:[Continued laughter]

Pete: Andyou read stuff in narratives, you know, you said poetic stuff, like, to begathered with your fathers, or to be buried with your fathers. Which is a wayof saying you’re dying –

Jared: Mmhmm.

Pete: Oryou’re dead, but it’s a good kind of death and it’s a sign of a blessedness indeath and then your life continues in your offspring, which is why offspringare so important.

Jared: Yeah,so, maybe let’s even backtrack before Sheol, because Sheol was the idea of anafterlife, but for a lot of the Old Testament, it’s kind of silent on whathappens when you die. It’s more interested - which I think is an importantthing to say - I think it’s more interested in your legacy living on in thelife of your kids.

Pete: Mmhmm, right.

Jared:That’s sort of how you know you lived a good life and that’s how you live oninto the future, is through your kids.

Pete:Yeah! Which is not, I mean, I don’t know, I know people today who think a lotlike that.

Jared:Yeah.

Pete:Even if they think of afterlife in some other way, you just, you wanna, like,how do you wanna die? In a bed, with your family around you, and your kids.

Jared: Mmhmm, when you’re old.

Pete:When you’re old, right!

[Laughter]

Jared:[Laughter]

Youforgot that important part.

Pete: Notlike, right away.

Jared:Yeah!

[Continuedlaughter]

Pete: Oh,we’re laughing about death.

Jared:Ah, yes.

Pete:Yeah, so, I mean, it’s something that is, it indicates a, like, you’ve diedwell, blessed by God and you’re gathered with your fathers, which, well, doesn’tthat mean afterlife consciousness? I mean, frankly, there’s no indication ofthat. It could, or it could just mean you can be buried in the same country asyour fathers.

Jared: Iwas gonna say, you literally be gathered with your fathers.

Pete:Yeah, right. And you’re all there together, and maybe, I mean, I’d like tothink there’s some speculation there on the part of the ancient Israelitesthinking, well, maybe if we keep ‘em all together, right?

Jared:[Laughter]

Yeah,then in the afterlife they’re not gonna get lost.

Pete:Yeah, so they’re all buried, I mean Abraham and Sarah buried in the same place,you know, stuff like that. So -

Jared:Well, I think I emphasize that because growing up where the emphasis was somuch on the other-worldliness of faith, and I always appreciated learning andreading authors like Jon Levenson and others where they really emphasized thatit’s, there is a way to die well without necessarily a belief in eternallyliving on forever. And I think that’s important, especially because there arepeople of other faiths and there are people of no faith who I want to respectand honor their way of kind of living long lives and dying well, and it doesn’talways have to include this anxiety of getting people saved so they have thislong, eternal life –

Pete: Mmhmm.

Jared:Which, I mean, for me, I appreciate that. It kind of calmed my anxiety to sayhey, a lot of the Old Testament doesn’t seem concerned about that. It’sconcerned about, life is tragic if it’s cut short, life is good if it’s longand you have children who can carry your name.

9:49

Pete: Andif it’s cut short because you’re righteous, or good, I mean, that’s tragic butit’s also something to be honored, especially later on in Judaism.

Jared: Mmhmm, yeah.

Pete: So,you mentioned salvation, which is a good thing to, maybe just, to tie into thisbecause, you know, what salvation means in the Hebrew Bible and the OldTestament is not, you’re on safe ground when you die and that’s exactly theassumption that I think Christians have made. It’s not an assumption. They’vehighlighted maybe some few things in the New Testament that might indicatethat, although I’m not very sure about that, but salvation, like in Luke’sgospel at the beginning when Jesus is born to salvation is to save the peoplefrom their enemies - that’s salvation. And salvation, redemption, deliverance –words like that in the Old Testament – it is a “this life” thing. There’ssimply no question about that.

Jared:Right.

Pete: Youcan’t really debate that, it’s God shows God’s presence by delivering peoplefrom enemies, and that’s the preoccupation in some of the Psalms and elsewhere.

Jared:Yeah. So, we have, kind of thinking about the afterlife we have this idea ofone notion that says, well, in a lot of places maybe the assumption is theydidn’t really know what to do with the afterlife, but it was really more aboutlong life, having posterity, legacy. Then we have this idea of Sheol, which iskind of this neutral, it’s always gray in my head for some reason, it’s likethe neutral zone.

Pete:Yeah. I feel like some scene in some Disney movie, which one is it, where, Iforget which one.

[Laughter]

It mightbe Hercules or something, you know what I mean?

Jared: Oh,yeah yeah. Mm hmm.

Pete: What,it’s like, the River Styx!

Jared:Yeah, it is Hercules.

Pete:Like, they’re floating in there like, uuughhhrhhhh, but -

Jared:[Laughter]

That’sright! Yeah, that’s right, that’s right.

Pete:It’s just not a place you want to go, but it’s a place you’re inevitably goingto go, and -

Jared: Right,but you’re not tortured actively.

Pete: No!

Jared:It’s not hell.

Pete:There’s no devil down there. There might be, not in the Bible, but elsewherethere is somebody who’s in charge. There’s a deity in charge of this place tonot let you out because you want to get out.

Jared:Right, right.

Pete: Butyou’re just sort of there in the Old Testament, that’s it.

Jared: Well,and then I want to point out Ecclesiastes, because in chapter three, that olddoubter –

Pete:Yeah.

Jared:Talks about, you know, who knows whether the soul goes up or the spirit goesup.

Pete:Yeah.

Jared: Idon’t know what the Hebrew there is, is it ruah, breath?

Pete: Idon’t remember. Yeah, there’s yeah, nephesh maybe, but probably not.

Jared:Okay.

Pete:Yeah, we need to look up, we need to prepare for these podcasts, don’t we?

[Laughter]

It’s inthe Bible for heaven’s sake!

Jared: Well,I figured you had the whole Bible memorized in Hebrew, Pete!

Pete: Ourlisteners can look this stuff up. They’re fine. We’re not gonna tax them withtoo much information, but…

Jared: Butanyway, in Ecclesies… Ecclesies? Clesies.

Pete:[Laughter]

Jared:Gee wiz.

Pete: Whoknows if the spirit of man goes up and the animal goes down?

Jared:Right.

Pete:Which is interesting they’d already assumed some things.

Jared:That’s right.

Pete:Right?

Jared:Yeah, there seems to be something in the air, right, already.

Pete: Andthis is a post-exilic second temple text. And that’s important, I mean, peopledisagree on when it was written, but very few people say earlier than the fifthcentury, and some say even a little bit later. So, you already havedevelopments there of a different way of conceiving of the afterlife, and it’sjust sort of thrown at you here in chapter three. It’s like you’re justsupposed to know what to do with this, right. Now, he’s doubting it entirely,right?

Jared:Right.

Pete: Butthe thing is, he’s doubting it. What the it? The it came from somewhere and itdidn’t come from the rest of the Old Testament. It didn’t come from pre-exilicOld Testament texts.

Jared:Right.

Pete: Itcame from somewhere, and that’s the interesting thing.

Jared:Right, well, let’s maybe go into that, because I think that ties into, there’sdefinitely a phase, right? So, if we’re talking older, you know, talk aboutpre-exilic. So, we’re talking, you know, sixth century and before –

Pete: Mmhmm.

Jared:Israelite kind of belief and practice, as we, at least as we have it kind ofrecorded in the Bible. That’s where we have, kind of, not a lot to go on.

Pete: Mmhmm.

Jared: There’sjust not a lot there. We have this Sheol, but then as we get closer and westart getting to post-exilic, which is important because now we’ve got allthese other people groups starting to intermingle with the Jewish people, andwe start getting Hellenistic influences and other things that starts to shape.It’s interesting, you talked about development earlier, how the afterlifeconcept kind of develops and it develops, coincidentally or not, obviously not,with these people groups that are now bringing their own ideas about theafterlife into it. So, can you talk a little bit about that around when thiswould be and kind of what those influences would be?

14:35

Pete:Yeah, I mean, in the context of other cultures who maybe have their own viewson things, and also theologically in response to things that stop making senseto them. So, I mean, with Ecclesiastes, that’s a good question where he’sgetting this from and I’m not sure if we can say with any certainty, butthere’s something in the air and is it the result of Babylonian influence, oris it maybe Persian influence? Some people say that.

Jared:Well, let’s make that explicit. So, what we’re saying is, there is a belief inthe culture in which Ecclesiastes is written, where the spirit, there’s abelief that the spirit of people goes up, presumably to heaven to be with God –

Pete: Mmhmm.

Jared:And the spirit of animals go down into the ground to be, who knows?

Pete:Yeah.

Jared:Gone.

Pete:Yeah. What are they doing down there?

Jared:Annihilated, whatever.

Pete: Isthis a conscious spirit goes down with animals?

Jared:Right.

Pete: Doanimals go to heaven? No Billy, they all go to hell. They go down there, so, yaknow.

Jared:[Laughter]

But, sothere’s this, that’s kind of the, it seems like that’s the belief that Qoheleth,the writer of Ecclesiastes, is assuming.

Pete:He’s calling into question a lot of stuff.

Jared:Right.

Pete:That we would consider to be, you know, fairly straightforward, like, orthodoxBiblical teaching, and he’s skeptical.

Jared:Yeah.

Pete:He’s skeptical because he’s somewhat of an evidentialist –

Jared: Mmhmm.

Pete:Like, he doesn’t see the effects of things and so he says, who knows? We don’tactually, I mean, it’s actually, it’s sort of refreshing.

Jared:Yeah! I mean, he’s kind of right. We don’t know!

Pete: Hegoes, hey pal, we don’t actually know anything. So, like, in other words, youcan’t, I’ve heard people sort of try to correct the negativity of this guy, Qohelethas you called him in Ecclesiastes, and say well, he doesn’t have, you know, anunderstanding of like, when you die you go to heaven and everything is going tobe okay. He’s saying, I’ve thought through that one, and I don’t know that it’sthere, do you know that it’s there? I just, I don’t know, I find it a littlebit refreshing.

Jared: Mmhmm.

Pete: Buthe doesn’t dwell on that, you know, it’s really just a little bit there inchapter three and that’s it. So, we catch a glimpse –

Jared: Mmhmm, but, you know, again, like you said – there’s definitely an influence, andit’s not coming from the rest of the Old Testament that this influence iscoming. You said it could be Babylonian influence, it could be -

Pete:Perhaps.

Jared:Could it be Greek influence at this point?

Pete:Maybe, if it’s that late.

Jared: Mmhmm.

Pete: Andif it’s that late, it would have to be –

Jared:It’d be real late, like second century.

Pete: Itmight even be the third century at the earliest. And there are some people whothink Ecclesiastes is that late, it’s possible, it’s hard to tell. But it’scoming from, I mean, I think it’s enough to say it’s coming from some type ofreasoning process or influence that is after the tragedy of exile, which maybeis something that got people thinking about a whole lot of stuff.

Jared:Mmm.

Pete:This could come to an end any minute, ya know? And so, I mean, that’s, apartfrom that what else? We have Daniel, right? I mean, Daniel 12?

Jared:Yeah, ‘til we get to the New Testament.

Pete: Yeah.Until we get to the New Testament, and there’s stuff in between too, but, yaknow, Daniel is another one where, there we have what seems to be a clearernotion of something postmortem and it’s a context of judgement, but what do wehave here? Daniel 12, starting in verse 2, “many of those who sleep in the dustof the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame andeverlasting contempt.” So now we’re dealing with coming back to life. It’s notlike what happens to you after you die. It’s sort of like, I mean, Tom Wrightcalls talks about life after, life after death, and that’s sort of what’shappening here in Daniel. But “those who are wise shall shine like thebrightness of the sky, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the starsforever and ever.” So, this is a notion that actually you find elsewhere inJudaism at the time. Daniel was probably written in the second century. Atleast the final form of it, it may have earlier traditions –

Jared:Which is way, way late.

Pete:It’s pretty darn late.

Jared:Yeah.

Pete:Yeah, it’s written in the context of Greek influence, and a response to thepersecutions that were happening early in the second century and Daniel sort ofalludes to that throughout the places in his book, but -  

Jared:But is this one of the first notions? So, so far we’ve been talking, we’ve kindof been walking through the Old Testament in terms of ideas of the afterlife.Is this one of the first references that we have to this idea of what we mightcall bodily pre end of the world resurrection?

Pete:Something. Yeah, this is it, in my opinion. There is a passage in Isaiah thatsome people pick on, and honestly, I’ve read this so many times, I think it’sin chapter 28, again, I don’t have the Bible memorized. But, I mean, you havenational resurrection and, but again, resurrection and afterlife are not,they’re related. They’re connected. They’re not the same thing.

19:33

Jared:So, like in Ezekiel, right? With the dry bones and that’s clearly a picture ofIsrael resurrecting as a people.

Pete:Yeah, after the exile.

Jared: Mmhmm.

Pete: Exileis a place of death, coming back to the land is resurrection, and it’s thevalley of the dry bones where they come back to life. And it’s not mysteriousat all what that means, because Ezekiel says I’m talking about the return fromexile, right? So, you have a national resurrection, but the resurrectionbusiness is all post-postmortem, right? So, I mean, on one level, if we justtry to stick with what happens to you when you die, not one day in some distantfuture moment, but when you die, there isn’t much to go on. Here it’s just, youknow, you’re in the dust, right, and then you raise to everlasting life. Now,the nature of that life is basically like the stars in the sky and that’s anotion of Judaism. That’s one of several ways people talk about like that stateof immortality, right? So, we have to make the distinction between theafterlife, what happens to you when you die, and at what point do you talkabout, well, the immortality of somebody and is it the immortality of the soulor of the body? And Jews had very different opinions on that sort of thing. Butwhat happens after you die, even Daniel is not helpful really. It’s not afteryou die, it’s raised one day in the context of judgement, and I think that’s areally, really important development in Judaism, that God raises the dead forthe purpose of judgement. That’s not an Old Testament notion other than Daniel,but Daniel is already participating in a way of thinking that’s very muchinfluenced by that Greek context. 

[Musicbegins]

[Producersgroup endorsement]

[Musicends]

Pete: Isthis where we get the idea of, like, apocalyptic literature where it starts tobe, we’re now a persecuted people and we have, we have to find a way to honorand to make sense of these noble people who die for just cause. This can’t justbe the end for them, there’s resurrection is a way to sort of, I don’t knowwhat the right word is, validate that? To –

Pete:Actually, it’s to justify God. It’s a defense of God, really.

Jared:Right, yeah. Cause otherwise, these innocent people are just dying.

Pete: Whybe Jewish if you die before you see the return of the glorious kingdom? Youknow, the Davidic reign reinvigorated, which many Jews thought would behappening at some point. And if you are faithful in keeping the covenant, youwould be rewarded for that by participating in the kingdom, but if you die,tough beans for you. So, in order for God to be just to these martyrs, or justpeople who just died, not even martyrs, just people who died – the reasoningwas, you know, well God must raise the dead. What else can God do? And I thinkit’s fair to say, I mean, these things, folks, the myriad of issues thatinterweave when you start talking about some of this stuff, it gets really alot and there are different angles to take, but at least for me, Jared, what Ithink is that this is the development during this period of time after thedestruction of the temple, after they came back from exile, of thinking throughbasically, what is God like? And how can death be the end if God is going to bejust to those who have been faithful to him? It’s basically a matter offairness and justice, and even to say God’s righteousness, right? For God to berighteous, God must raise the dead because otherwise, they’re just dead and allthat’s like, why bother being Jewish? Especially in the sense and people saythe same thing about why bother being Christian? You know, this life is allthere is. Well, yeah. Eat, drink, and be merry, and all that kind of stuff,right?

24:45

Jared:Right, yeah. Which again, Ecclesiastes addresses quite a bit.

Pete:Right, yeah.

Jared:His answer is, yeah, well, I understand it’s all vanity, but, praise Godanyway.

Pete:Yeah.

[Laughter]

Jared:That’s it! Not a lot else going on, but I wanted to mention one other passage.We were talking about a little bit earlier before we started recording, becauseI think it’s important here because it ties together the, you know, between theOld and the New Testaments, there’s a lot happening in terms of the identity ofthe Jewish people, and these different people who are coming in and takingover, and they have many different rulers, and it’s just a lot. And thenthere’s other things being written, and so one of the things that you mentionedwas the Wisdom of Solomon. And in chapter three, it talks about “the souls ofthe righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them. Inthe eyes of the foolish, they seemed to have died, and their departure wasthought to be a disaster, and their going from us to be their destruction; butthey are at peace.” So, it ties in really well with what, I’m just gonna put alittle teeth to what you were saying, I think it’s a great example of thisapology for God. It seems like they were destroyed, but really, they are atpeace. And this is the kind of stuff that’s happening and going on during thistime between the Old and the New Testament.

Pete:Yeah, and there was some diversity too, in Judaism, whether, you know, beingraised and judged and passing the judgment, is it a physical thing, or is itmore the soul continues? So, really the issue is between resurrection andimmortality, and those are two different things, and what you just read in theWisdom of Solomon is immortality.

Jared:Right.

Pete:It’s the soul continues, and there are strains of Judaism, not the least ofwhich is Paul, who felt that it was, well, the body is very, very importantbecause the body has to be raised. See, this is the thing, the body has to beraised in order to participate in the kingdom. Why? Because the kingdom’s here.

Jared:The physical reality, yes.

Pete:Yes! It’s not up there someplace, the kingdom is here. So, you participate inthat. I think, you know, that’s sometimes missed. You know, like, we go up toheaven and we’re sort of a spirit. Okay, well, you know, at the end, as youknow, typical Christian thinking – in the end what happens when Jesus returns? Well,the dead are raised. Now what? Like, do we go back up again? No, not really, Imean, or are we up to begin with? Like, where are we?

Jared:[Laughter]

Yeah,right. We need one of those maps – “you are here.”

Pete:Yeah.

[Laughter]

Jared:Exactly.

Pete: Butyou see, you start plotting this stuff out, and it’s like, I’m not exactlysure. And you start looking for passages starting in the Old Testament to helpyou map it out, it’s like, my GPS is broken, because I’m not finding it here.

Jared: Mmhmm. Well I appreciate that, because I think that can be, that can be a helpfulway to categorize what can be confusing, which is resurrection and immortality,because I don’t think people often think clearly about the distinction betweenthat. That for Paul in much of the New Testament, there is a bodilyresurrection. Would you say there’s not a lot said about what happens betweenwhen you die and when Christ returns, there’s not a lot said about what’s goingon there. The real important moment is when Christ comes back, the dead are allraised and then there’s a physical reality of living in this reinvigoratedkingdom.

28:14

Pete:Yeah, this new heaven and new earth so to speak. But it is a physicality, it’snot just an ephemeral thing. You know, I think what ties into this is, again,the notion of, well, use the word apocalyptic. The apocalypse, which isn’t theend of the world, it’s the end of the age and the beginning of the new one andthe hope is for the new age. The new age is marked by resurrection and the ruleof God and things are at peace and this was a major hope, but the thing is, andI think this, to me, has helped me make a lot of sense of this stuff. Thenotion was, this is gonna happen pretty soon. We’re not thinking like, inthousands of years, Jesus will come back, and then everything will be setstraight. It’s happening very soon. Hold on, don’t get married. You know, juststay the pace. Don’t falter, don’t disbelieve, don’t doubt, because it’s anurgent moment. And so, there are many people, loved ones that Paul writes to,you know. In 1 Corinthians it’s a topic, like, what about them, and Paul says,yeah, they’ll be raised. I don’t know if Paul, I mean, I’m certain in my mindthat Paul’s not thinking like, this could go on for centuries upon centuriesupon centuries. So, it’s, let me say it’s easier to think of this reconstitutedphysical kingdom where the Messiah, Jesus, is on the throne, he returns toreclaim his territory. And those who have died, who are all, in their mindsfairly recent deaths, or maybe going back to, you know, all this stuff thathappened since the exile, it could be a lot of people, but it’s not severalbillion more, right? So, I think it’s easier to conceive of it, but for us, wehave to, it’s just, it’s been a long time and are all these people physically,I mean, I’m just thinking out loud here. Are all these people physically gonnabe raised? Where are we gonna put them? How does that work? And –

Jared:And then do they die again? Or is it just a forever kingdom on earth now wherewe don’t die?

Pete: Youkeep going with your body, I guess. And, you know, it’s a glorious body, thisand that, and Paul talks about that in 1 Corinthians 15 too, so, you know, butit’s a spiritual body. You know, and people have, like, debated. To get intothat, it’s like three podcasts, but what is that mean, a spiritual body, youknow? But that what I’m saying. Paul is like, he says a few things –

Jared:Yeah. You have a corruptible body then you get an incorruptible body.

Pete:Yes, exactly. Right. That’s what I meant.

Jared:Yeah.

Pete:Okay, could you expand that, Paul, for another paragraph. Help us understandwhat that means. We have these little indications that don’t, forgive me,explain much.

Jared:Right.

Pete:That’s the thing. And some of us want explanations, and we want to know andunderstand, and I’m not so sure how much help the New Testament is in actuallywith that. I mean Paul, in Philippians 1 –

Jared:Yup.

Pete:It’s, you know, to be with Christ is better by far. I could live, I could die,but, you know, when I die, I’m gonna be with Jesus. Okay, in what sense doesthat mean?

Jared: Mmhmm.

Pete:Like, you’re gonna stand there talking to him, is there like a spiritualconnection, what happens?

Jared:And to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Pete:Yes, right.

Jared: So,there’s a sense of immediacy in that kind of more, maybe not immortality, butwhat happens when you die.

Pete:Right.

Jared:There’s a sense of, well, you get to be present with the Lord in that sense.

Pete: Andthat seems to be a holding pattern –

Jared:Until, and then you get to come back with Jesus, I guess?

Pete: Iwonder if it’s sort of a Sheol kind of thing…

Jared:Like a waiting room?

Pete: Yeah,and I’m sort of tying things together here a little bit just as I’m riffing,but, the whole issue of Jesus that is resurrection, the harrowing of hell as wesay, you know, it’s reclaiming the dead as his, and sort of putting an end tothat. Maybe that’s going on with Paul. But again, my point is I have no ideareally. I’m just sort of riffing here, so –

Jared:Right.

Pete: Andwe talk about, you know, practically speaking afterlife today, just otherissues come to mind that probably didn’t have to come to mind with them. Like,the universe was smaller back then, it was like, okay, God is going to set upshop in Jerusalem again, but we have this infinite space that we live in, andwhat does it mean for God to show up, and is physicality really everything, or,you know, when you die is there consciousness? What does consciousness mean?People, philosophers, and neuroscientists talk about consciousness, and I don’tunderstand half of it, but it’s really interesting. And some say consciousnessis something that is a product of material existence, namely your brain.

Jared: Mmhmm.

Pete:Other say, nah, it seems to be like, that doesn’t account for this. It seems tobe outside of it. I’m hoping the outside ones are right, but who knows?

Jared: Butwho knows? Like Qoheleth said, who knows?

Pete: Idon’t know.

Jared:Yeah. That’s right. Yeah, yeah. Well I just want to go back to one thing yousaid was in the New Testament, the idea that people will be resurrected andthat might just be local. I just want to point out in Luke 13, Jesus mentionsin this great kind of role reversal, he said, well, I’m basically gonna grabAbraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They’re gonna be with me in the kingdom with allthese other random people, and there’s gonna be a lot of Jewish people whoaren’t gonna make it –

Pete:Yes.

Jared:Because of this, so, and all the people are pissed off -

Pete:Right.

Jared:And, ya know, upset. But in that sense, like, he’s going all the way back tothe patriarchs –

Pete:Right, right.

Jared: Toa resurrect for this kingdom, so –

Pete:Right, and it’s not they’re going to heaven and the others are going to hell.It’s the constitution of a kingdom, and the question, okay, what happens tothose who don’t pass the bar, right?

Jared:Right.

Pete:Well, there are differences of opinion. Some just –

Jared: Wejust know there will be crying and gnashing of teeth.

Pete:[Laughter]

Jared: Wedon’t know what that means.

Pete:They just stayed dead?

Jared:Right.

Pete: Orthey ceased to exist? The notion of being tormented for eternity, I mean, we’llleave this for other people, but that is a notion that is utterly foreign tothe New Testament. I reject it completely.

Jared:Well, I think what happens is once we get out of kind of what we’re talkingabout today, like, this fuzzy, doesn’t seem to be that important to thebiblical writers to get really clear on what happens when you die. Even if itwas that important, I’m with Qoheleth. How could you really know? Andso, anything about eternal conscious torment when you die, all that is bynature, speculative, and it’s, you’re outside the realm of biblical studies atthat point.

Pete:Yeah, I guess even, you know, for people who are Christian, still to ask thequestion, was Paul speculating or was Paul also a part of his Jewishapocalyptic matrix, so to speak, where there were certain assumptions made, ifthat’s the right way to put it. They’re beliefs, certain beliefs about what theend means. And again, the end seems to not be shaped in, well, you go to heavenwhen you die. It’s the kingdom will be set up. What about all those people whodied? Hey, good question. Let’s think about this. Hey, I know! God will raisethe dead, and in the meantime, there is a holding place to go to, and that’swhat Paul seems to be talking about. There must be something like that, right?And he believes that, he fervently believes that. That may come from his Jewishcontext, where he’s putting pieces together, and it is, you know, whether, andI know this is not the easiest thing for everyone to sort of think through, andI totally respect that, but, we think through this outside of the Jewishapocalyptic matrix. We do.

Jared:That’s not the water we swim in.

Pete:It’s not. And you look to the Bible, and say, well, the Bible says this, butwhat if the Bible’s talk about afterlife is encultured?

Jared:Shaped by and conditioned by this certain environment.

Pete:Right. And like, other things in the Bible, once the environment changes, wehave to, if I can use the word, Jared, reimagine things, and ask different setsof questions, right?

Jared: Mmhmm, yeah.

Pete:[Sigh]

Yeah.

Jared:Well, I want to come back, cause I think we kinda come back full circle here aswe wrap up this episode, and that is, you know, we talked about the emphasishere on, at the beginning of our Bible’s in the Old Testament, there is more ofa physical emphasis. There is an emphasis on the physicality of our lives. Fromthe patriarchs on, it’s about living a long and full life, obedient to God. Andthen, here, just what you were saying when the New Testament rings a similarsound, which is, we’re talking about a physical kingdom. And so kind of, frombeginning to end, this question, it just helps me think about the questionisn’t really in the Bible. How do we figure out what happens when we die? Buthow do we either prepare for, be ready for, this kingdom of God, how do we livea long and full life here and now? It’s a very earth-centered narrative. Kindof beginning to end. There isn’t a lot of outer space, after life talk.

Pete: No,cause resurrection is, it assumes that the centrality of the physicality of itall.

Jared:Right.

Pete: AndI’m like, what about in between? I don’t know.

Jared:Exactly.

Pete: Youhave ideas, right? But again, other strains of Judaism, it’s not thephysicality of it all, like with Daniel or with the Wisdom of Solomon, there isanother dimension, which is a –

Jared:There is a soul, kind of.

Pete:Immortality –

Jared:Yup.

Pete: Andyou know, I know a lot of Christians have been criticized for having more senseof like, the immortality of the soul, not the physicality of it, because theBible says physicality. But there are reasons for thinking about immortality ofwhat we might call consciousness and not the soul, but –

Jared: Mmhmm. The Bible is diverse.

Pete: TheBible is diverse, and also our context is different. So, ya know, I think it’sokay to talk about these things you know, and not to say, well here, theteaching is clear. Well heavens, it’s not clear! There are things that aresaid, but even what Paul says, it raises other sorts of questions that I thinkare really good things to be talking about.

Jared:Right. Well what I hear you saying, which I think is a larger point that we canmaybe explore in another episode sometime –

Pete: Wecan call it after afterlife, another episode.

Jared:[Laughter]

Anotherepisode. Uh, is that we don’t need to let, the Bible doesn’t get to constrainthe questions we ask, does that make sense? That it’s legitimate and it’sappropriate and it’s healthy and important, actually, to ask questions that theBible isn’t equipped to even ask because of the context in which it was writtenin.

Pete:Questions that never entered into the minds of the writers –

Jared:Right.

Pete: Arein our face all the time.

Jared:Because it almost seems like sometimes in certain traditions or in certaincommunities of faith, those are like, out of bounds or off limits. Like, youcan’t even talk about these, like you can’t talk about neuroscience in relationto consciousness because that language isn’t in the Bible. And so, since thelanguage isn’t in the Bible, we don’t really even know what to do with thesecategories of thought that have given us things like artificial intelligenceand all of these other things that really need to be a part of theconversation, but a lot of times we cut them off at the knees. We don’t allowfor it because, well, what would Paul have to say about it. It’s like, ourminds can’t even compute because, well, obviously, Paul wasn’t thinking aboutthat.

Pete: Andthat’s part of the reality of having a faith today that is always inconversation with, even rooted in an ancient story and text, but that stilldoesn’t, almost by definition, address all the questions that we have. Andthat’s, this is just a microcosm Jared, of the entire history of Christianthought, because that’s what’s been happening. The contexts have changed,situations have changes, and people have had to ask fresh sets of questionsthat, yeah, are fresh, that were not asked before.

[Musicbegins]

Pete:Well folks, I guess we could be talking about the afterlife for an eternity -

[Drumsting and laugh track]

Jared:[Laughter]

Pete:Wasn’t that really funny there, folks? Anyway. But no, that’s all the time wehave today. We’ve had a good time talking about this, and as we sign out, wewant to thank the people who make this possible, like for example MeganCammack, who is our podcast producer.

Jared:Yes, and Shay Bocks, who is our creative director. She makes everything look sopretty.

Pete:Yes, I know. And Reed Lively, who is our community champion, who connects with allthe people out there and makes that flow.

Jared:And last, but certainly not least, Dave Gerhart, who is our audio engineerextraordinaire.

Pete: Whodoesn’t like, cut in bad words, you know, when he’s doing these podcasts.

Jared:But he does cut out our bad words –

Pete:[Laughter]

Jared:And so, we are [beeeeeeeeeeeep] grateful.

Pete:Yours Jared, maybe not mine, but yours. So anyway.

Jared: Alright,well thanks everybody. We’ll see ya next time.

Pete: Seeya.

[Musicends]

[End ofrecorded material]

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