We’re back for the seventh season of The Bible for Normal People and we’re kicking things off with Beth Allison Barr! In this episode, Beth joins Pete and Jared to talk about the historical and cultural development of biblical womanhood in white American evangelicalism and how she has navigated the backlash against her bestselling book The Making of Biblical Womanhood.
Join them as they explore the following questions:
Where did the evangelical view of biblical womanhood come from, and why did it develop?
What influenced a different view of womanhood in different denominational traditions?
What are the differences between evangelical and mainline churches?
How does the evangelical emphasis on “God’s order” play out in broader culture?
What is it that drives some people to highlight some biblical texts about womanhood over others?
At what times in American history do we see the evangelical church use the Bible to support its own ideas of womanhood?
Does the Bible promote the kind of womanhood we see in evangelicalism or not? Or is it ambiguous? How do we assess that?
What's the historical evolution of biblical womanhood?
How has Beth navigated the onslaught of social media anger against her book and her academic research?
What was the intention and the impact of writing The Making of Biblical Womanhood?
Tweetables
Pithy, shareable, less-than-280-character statements from Beth you can share.
Biblical womanhood is rooted in culture, not actually in the Bible. — @bethallisonbarr
This is part of this embattled identity—that we are protecting the Bible and protecting the “right” interpretation of the Bible without realizing that that “right” interpretation is grounded in a cultural interpretation. — @bethallisonbarr
One of the things that the Bill Gothard movement emphasized was on how God would bless the homes and the nations that stayed within the design [of] male headship and female submission. And if you went outside those bounds, that would lead to chaos in your family. And those really became mainstream ideas. — @bethallisonbarr
These markers of piety, purity, submission, and domesticity, which is what this cult of white southern womanhood was supposed to be—has become what biblical womanhood is. — @bethallisonbarr
When we see women moving towards more equality, is often when we see these strong sort of pushbacks to “right” society, and put them back in the home. — @bethallisonbarr
It seems to be that the emphasis on using passages in the New Testament that seem to suggest the submission of women and male headship—that [those passages] begin to be focused on significantly when women begin to push for the right to vote. — @bethallisonbarr
Most white evangelicals in these conservative traditions that support male headship and female submission also use corresponding biblical translations that also seem to support that. — @bethallisonbarr
People are afraid that if they admit that there is influence on the translation of the Bible, then that somehow invalidates Christianity. — @bethallisonbarr
The Bible is patriarchal. It was written in a patriarchal culture, it reflects patriarchal norms. — @bethallisonbarr
It's impossible to read the Bible without coming away with how women are marginalized, the difficult situations that women find themselves in, etc. All of [the Bible] was written in a patriarchal world. — @bethallisonbarr
If we think historically, a turning point for what we would consider to be modern "biblical womanhood" today is the Reformation era. — @bethallisonbarr
Mentioned in This Episode
February Class: Putting the Pieces Together After Deconstruction taught by Pete Enns and Jared Byas
Books:
Curveball by Pete Enns
The Making of Biblical Womanhoodby Beth Allison Barr
Jesus and John Wayne by Kristen Kobes DuMez
Texts of Terror by Phyllis Trible
Join: The Society of Normal People community
Support: www.thebiblefornormalpeople.com/give
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Pete
You're listening to the Bible for Normal People, the only God-ordained podcast on the internet. I'm Pete Enns.
Jared
And I'm Jared Byas.
[Intro music]
Pete
Hey, folks, before we get started here, I have a brand new book coming out tomorrow, February 7th. It's called Curveball: When Your Faith Takes Turns You Didn't See Coming. I'm very excited about it, it's the most personal book that I've written and it's about how my theology changed because of certain experiences that I've had.
Jared
Knowing your story, I'm excited for people to hear a little bit more about this move that I think...This journey we've both been on to—how do we talk about God and engage with these ideas in a more personal way, outside of the structure of, maybe, the way we've always been taught to interpret certain experiences—
Pete
Right.
Jared
—and life and how life will throw us curveballs, and yet, we can still engage in this life of faith.
Pete
[Hums in agreement]
Jared
And I think that's where a lot of people are.
Pete
I think where everybody is, at some level or not, actually. I mean, whether they know it or not. Our experiences do affect how we think about the nature of God—or if you're a Christian, you know, Jesus, and Christianity and the Bible and all that. So this book is about me reflecting on those things, some of which are personal, but some things are like scientific, you know? And just all those things have made me think differently about God, and I'm very conscious about that transition, let's call it, in this book. And so I'm hoping that I'm not telling other people what to believe.
Jared
Right.
Pete
You know, that you don't have to have these experiences.
Jared
Given the way you're approaching things, that would be to undermine the point.
Pete
Right!
Jared
Which is that your experiences affect how you see the world.
Pete
Right. Yeah. And other people can relate in the fact that I think they also have, they think differently about God today than they did 10 years ago, because stuff happened.
Jared
Right.
Pete
Right. And that's the thing, stuff happens all the time. And how can it not affect how we think about God?
Jared
Absolutely.
Pete
That's my point.
Jared
So, you can buy Curveball wherever you like to get your books. If you like to find local bookstores to support you can go to indiebound.org. I often use bookshop.org as well. But wherever you buy books, the key is just buy the book.
Pete
Or several copies.
Jared
That's it! Several copies.
Pete
Yeah.
Jared
Right? Absolutely.
Pete
You might want to read it more than once.
Jared
Yeah. I think Valentine's Day is coming up.
Pete
Is it?
Jared
Yeah.
Pete
Do people give books on Valentine's Day?
Jared
They should!
Pete
They should!
Jared
Yeah, absolutely.
Pete
Dagnabit. Yeah.
Jared
All right. So pick it up, "Curveball".
Pete
And…!
Jared
We're really excited because this year, we're putting on a class every single month.
Pete
Oh, my goodness gracious. And our February class is called "Putting the Pieces Together After Deconstruction" and it's led by yours truly, by which I mean Jared and myself.
Jared
That's right. "Yours truly-ees?" I don't know how you pluralize that...
Pete
I know, we shouldn't even try.
Jared
Well, the class is live for one night only, and it's going to be on February 20th, from 8 to 9:30pm Eastern Time.
Pete
And folks, as we always do, as is our habit, the class is pay-what-you-can until the 20th and then it will be available for download for $25.
Jared
Alternatively, you can become a member of the Society of Normal People for $12 a month. You'll get access to all of our classes past, present, future, and you'll get an exclusive members-only Q&A session that we're adding to each class as well.
Pete
So if you're stoked about this, and of course you are, for more information and to enroll in the class, go to www.TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/Deconstruction.
Jared
See you there, folks.
[Music plays]
Jared
Welcome everyone, to the inaugural episode of the seventh season of the Bible for Normal People.
Pete
Woohoo!
Jared
Today we are talking about pushing back against biblical womanhood with none other than Beth Allison Barr.
Pete
Yeah, and Beth, of course, she's very well known. She teaches European history and all sorts of things like that. She's also got a best selling book The Making of Biblical Womanhood which is probably how you heard of her. And it was just so much fun to talk with her and just learning a lot over this episode. So we really hope you enjoy it.
Beth
[Music plays over teaser clip of Beth speaking]
Biblical womanhood is rooted in culture, not actually in the Bible. And so I think this is part of this embattled identity—that we are protecting the Bible and protecting the right interpretation of the Bible without realizing that that “right” interpretation is grounded in a cultural interpretation.
[Ad break]
Jared
Thanks for jumping on the podcast with us, we really appreciate it.
Beth
Thanks for having me.
Jared
Where did this view of womanhood come from? And why did it develop? We have the same Bible, and yet it developed within Evangelicalism in a very different way than it did for mainline Protestants and progressive denominations. So what were those influences that changed from one to the other? How do we get to a different result?
Beth
So I might push back a little bit on difference between mainline and Evangelicalism because even though mainlines have been ordaining women for quite some time, if you actually look at the numbers of how many women are in the pastorates, or are what you would call senior pastors, whatever, they're still really small. And so it's really—it's fascinating how even within structures that support women in ministry, women are not being supported in a way that helps promote them through. So we have a leaky pipeline, even in mainline.
Jared
Yes. So maybe true in theory, but not true in practice.
Beth
Right. So I think in some way there are significant differences between Evangelicalism and mainline. But at the same time, the reality for both is we see women not moving through to these positions of authority.
Pete
Could we talk about the differences that you just mentioned, between Evangelical and mainline churches?
Beth
Yeah, certainly. So the mainline churches that I'm most familiar with, of course, are American Baptist, with the Baptist world. And we know that American Baptists have been ordaining women since the late 19th century. In fact, almost all, we know that, you know, Methodists also claimed that women began to be ordained in the 19th century. And in fact, we see throughout, you know, Catherine Brekus has done this wonderful study where she's counted women in North America in the 18th and the 19th century, and she's counted more than 100 of these women who are preachers and ordained. So we know that in the 19th century, we have this significant tradition of women preaching. And this tradition seems to continue more in mainline churches than it does in evangelicalism. In evangelicalism, it goes backwards. Whereas in mainline churches, it's sort of a stuttered going forward. We see women being ordained in the 19th century, and then that kind of...That goes away for a little bit in the early 20th century and then we see it pick back up again in the post-war era especially. And we see women being ordained and recognized at full equality.
I think theologically, one of the main differences is that mainline churches emphasize that women and men are equally made in the image of God. And this is consistent if you look through, you know, almost all of their statements. When they talk about why they ordain women, they often start with that. And they start with Galatians, as well, with emphasizing that Paul said that "there is no male or female, there is no slave or free." And so those we see prominently focused in traditions that ordain women. And in evangelical traditions, what we see emphasized is on the order of the household, and the order of the church, very much an emphasis on order and that God is a God of order. That's something that you hear frequently, and that the order—so instead of maybe focusing on, you know, “we are all one in Christ Jesus,” as we find in Galatians, they focus on other passages that emphasize hierarchy, such as what they pull from the household codes from, you know, Ephesians 5, of course, is the one we often think about. So what I think one of the main differences is we see a different focus on biblical texts. Mainline churches focus on ones that that demonstrate the equality of men and women, and that we are all called in the same ministry, and evangelical churches focus more on passages that emphasize the differences or emphasize what they perceive to be a difference between women and men, and that God has ordained an order for the house, for the church, and for broader society. So.
Jared
That's interesting. I don't know if I've thought through it...
Pete
Quite that way?
Jared
—long enough in the way that you've just said it. Which is, behind the differences—because certainly, you know, we hear about the differences. But behind that, I hear you saying there's a structure or a preference, a tendency toward a God of order—that there is a certain structure to it. And so that is the impetus that manifests in these differences between men and women. And what biblical womanhood really comes from is this desire to see structure and order. And the reason that's so interesting to me is because as of late, I've been hearing about the Republican Party being a party of law and order. And so there's this connection of a desire to see order and so the political and religious affiliations between, you know, conservative Republicans and evangelicals make sense if that's the underlying structure. Is that what you've seen as well?
Beth
Well, you know, I don't know if it's "the" underlying structure, but I would say it's "a" underlying difference, this emphasis on that God has created a particular order. And that if you step outside of that order, then that is what leads to the fall of nations. That's what leads to the fall of your household, etc. There are certainly, if you think about...You know, this is something that Kristin Du Mez wrote about in Jesus and John Wayne, about how this fringe—ideas that we thought were fringe like Bill Gothard. And one of the things that the Bill Gothard movement emphasized was on how God would bless the homes and the nations, you know, etc, that stayed within the design, and the design was male headship and female submission. And that if you went outside of those bounds, then that would lead to chaos in your family. And those really became mainstream ideas. I think Focus on the Family was a big part of bringing those ideas more mainstream. I think the SBC, the Southern Baptist Convention, there was a lot of emphasis on or use of these Gothard ideas…
So I think that I think there is, I think there's emphasis on order, and that there is a right order for things to be done. And in fact, I mean, Al Mohler just very recently said this. He said that, you know, what biblical womanhood is, is a rightful ordering of church and home. And I've quoted him on that more than once, which is why I remember it.
Pete
Oh, I’ll bet you have.
[Beth laughs]
[Ad break]
Pete
Well, let me ask here, and I hope this is...I want to go a little bit behind what you're observing here.
Beth
Yeah.
Pete
Because I want to try to understand this. It's one thing to say that there are differences in what is emphasized in the Bible.
Beth
[Hums in agreement]
Pete
Whether it's image of God or hierarchy, order, that kind of stuff. But behind that, there's still something going on, I think, that drives people to highlight certain passages over others. So I don't know, can you help us? Like maybe even...how's the sausage made? What's even behind that, if anything?
Beth
Well, of course, the main thesis of The Making of Biblical Womanhood is that biblical womanhood is rooted in culture, not actually in the Bible. And so I would say a big driving factor is our culture, that it stems—if you think about southern white culture, which is in some ways—how women are regarded in southern white culture is pretty much the same as what has become known as biblical womanhood. And this is something that we can trace back, you know, very clearly to the 19th century. These markers of piety, purity, submission, and domesticity, which is what this cult of white southern womanhood was supposed to be has become what biblical womanhood is. So I think a lot of it, I mean, it really is rooted in this white southern culture. You can think about post-Civil War, where the emancipation of the slaves and there's a great concern for order. And sort of, you know, I have a historian friend who always says when they couldn't oppress Black people, they oppressed women. And it's not quite as simple as that. But we do see this hierarchy being more strictly established in the post-Civil War era. And when we see challenges to this white southern culture is when we often see these more restrictive pushbacks within the church. So I'll give you two examples.
First one: suffrage. And in the late 19th century, we see the emergence of suffrage. And Beverly Gaventa, who, I just love Beverly Gaventa. And one thing that I heard her say once, that has always stuck with me, was that she suspects that, you know, she said, "Somebody needs to do the work." And I've done a little bit of the work and she seems to be right, we need to do more. But it seems to be that the emphasis on using passages in the New Testament that seem to suggest the submission of women and male headship—these texts of terror, as we call them (Phyllis Trible)—that they begin to be focused on significantly when women begin to push for the right to vote. And that does seem to be a pretty clear correlation. This also correlates with Junia. Junia, of course, in Romans 16:7, who is identified as an apostle, and we begin to see her being identified, instead of as female, as male. And this does seem to correspond in biblical translations with, you know, around the suffrage movement. And so there seems to be this clear, like, going back to the Bible, "Why can't women have the vote?" Because women are told by God that they're supposed to be under a male authority.
So we see, you know, so that's one example. And a second example that we see similar is in the post-World War II era, again, in the US, where there is a concerted nationwide effort to get women out of jobs that men could have. And this is when we begin to see this uptick in emphasis on women's place is in the home, women's place is in the domestic sphere, men are to be out in public. And this is tied to how God created men and women. And so we see, you know, the, when we see women moving towards more equality, is often when we see these strong sort of pushbacks to “right” society, and put them back in the home.
Jared
Well, it's so ironic to hear you talk about this, because, you know, I grew up in a tradition—Southern Baptist evangelical—where I was warned about culture and how culture will actually take us off the path…
[Pete catches on to the irony and laughs]
And so, to hear, you know, the southern...
Pete
Well, the “wrong kind of culture.”
Jared
Well, that's the thing, there was no acknowledgement though that it was culture, it was just what the Bible said. And "culture" was this accidental thing that will take you off the path. But to hear, you know, this southern, white, cultural influence on it, as well as these historical moments of suffrage, and we've sort of let the cat out of the bag women are working, but now they're taking men's jobs. How do you assess then the relationship between the Bible and the...You know, I hear you saying, "It's not so much the Bible, its culture." But does the Bible promote the kind of womanhood we see in Evangelicalism or not? Or is it ambiguous? How do we assess that?
Beth
So, I would say the Bible used by most evangelicals does promote it. Because most evangelicals are using English Bible translations. And many of those English Bible translations that they're using are ones that tend to obscure women within the text. Of course the prominent example of this is the English Standard Version, the ESV. Take, for example, in Timothy where it talks about the qualifications to be an elder in the church that has all, you know, it's translated in the ESV as having all male pronouns. And yet we know that that's not an accurate reflection. It's more complicated than that. So I would say that most white evangelicals in these conservative traditions that support male headship and female submission also use corresponding biblical translations that also seem to support that. So I would argue that part of it is the translation history and lack of knowledge about how much translations are influenced by the culture of the translators. You know, there's a lot of fear about that. People are afraid that if they admit that there is influence on the translation of the Bible, then that somehow invalidates Christianity. And so I think that fear is also cultural, that evangelical culture, in some ways, has always been defined by who they are against, rather than, you know, who they are for. “We're keeping the bad guys out. We're protecting the family, protecting the children.” And so I think this is part of this embattled identity, that we are “protecting the Bible” and “protecting the right interpretation” of the Bible without realizing that that right interpretation is grounded in a cultural interpretation.
Pete
Yeah.
Beth
And they're afraid to see that.
Pete
We're very much, of course, in that mess right now. You know this, there's no question about that. I mean, just a side note, you mentioned the ESV. Mark Strauss, who is a New Testament scholar, he wrote an article years ago when the ESV came out—something like, "Why the English Standard Version should not be the standard English version."
Beth
[Laughs]
Pete
Clever title! Anyway, but it's just...Yeah, I think, you know, people recognize the problems with this translation and maybe its blind spots. But—
Beth
It's everywhere, though! Everywhere. I was horrified—I was in the UK for the first time since COVID last April, and one of my favorite churches in London, it's an old medieval church. And it's now a non-denominational evangelical church. And I went in this time, and every chair in there had an ESV sitting in it. And I just was like, "Oh, my goodness."
Pete
[Sighs resignedly] Yeah. Yeah...
Jared
Can I ask then, you know, we've jumped from the Bible to kind of modern day, but can you say, maybe just briefly, what's the historical evolution of this? You know, it's—there were these moments within suffrage, post-World War II, where we're emphasizing things. But, you know, were there other kind of, what's the evidence for biblical womanhood or women's involvement in church things before that?
Beth
Well, and this might also tie in to your question about, you know, "Does the Bible support this?" The Bible is patriarchal. It was written in a patriarchal culture, it reflects patriarchal norms. And so when we think about the beginning of what we would call "biblical womanhood" today, and I would define that the way it is defined, which is that men are called to be leaders and women are called to submit to male leadership. So, this is grounded in this broader patriarchy that we do see in biblical texts. And, you know, I mean, it's impossible to read the Bible without coming away with how women are marginalized, the difficult situations that women find themselves in, etc. So, I think on the one hand, we have to recognize that's part of it—is the patriarchal world in which the Bible was written both, you know, all of it was written in a patriarchal world. So that's a big piece of it.
But if we think historically, a turning point for what we would consider to be modern "biblical womanhood" today is the Reformation era. And this is something that, you know, I always say, I have to be really careful on because I have a lot of Reformation friends, the 16th century conference is one of the ones that I go to. And so I always have to be very careful about this. I don't want to blame it on Reformation theology, so to speak. But it—
Pete
But you can here if you want to! Go ahead! [Laughs]
Beth
I can blame—[Laughs]—You know, I mean, it's how Reformation theology was then translated within a world that was already beginning to enforce more laws—actually goes back to this law and order sort of thing, this ordering of society, where we see the laws are becoming increasingly strict, hindering women's ability to inherit property and constricting what women can do. And we also see this when we see Reformation theology becoming entrenched. And with this emphasis on "the godly family," this "holy household" as Lyndal Roper calls it, with the emphasis on to be a godly woman is to be a godly wife, at the same time that the laws of the Western world were becoming increasingly restrictive about wives. So if a godly woman is to be a wife, then in the early modern world, a godly woman was to be under the legal authority of a man. And so these two things became, they became a part of the Christian culture. This emphasis on the wife, and that this was a godly woman, and that her place was to be in the home and under male authority. So that would be a big turning point would be the Reformation.
[Ad break]
Pete
Well, you know, just maybe a subtext here I want to, I want to get at. You seem to like to speak your mind, don't you, Beth? And you get a lot of pushback from this. And, you know, social media is our reality and it's easy to say, "Oh I don't like social media and this and that."
Beth
Right, yeah.
Pete
But I think we...It's also a window unto certain things. And I know that you've had a lot of difficulty with fielding that. And can you just maybe a couple things, just maybe describe a little bit of that, your own experience, and how, what you hope to get out of that, right? Because there's a lot of polarization going on and people committed to polarization.
Beth
Right.
Pete
And how can you, like how do you navigate that? Because I think that's a reality, a lot of people who don't write big books like yours, they still deal with that. Right? And so just give us your experience and how that might help people navigate this reality.
Beth
Yeah, so you know, social media is really both a blessing and a curse—Just to use a phrase we often do—And it has given voice to so many people who otherwise would not be heard. And I think that is so important and so significant, that it's, you know, it's brought up the scholarship of people of color in a way that they, you know, haven't been brought out into spaces, where people like me suddenly are reading and realizing what we have been missing. They also give voice, you know, to women who are able to speak out directly against men, who often may hold, you know, hold the authority, and yet women's voices—you know, a good example of this is with Dane Ortlund, who just came out in Christianity Today about, you know, a problem that happened in his church and the woman who claimed that she had been retaliated and fired, was able to speak out and to bring her case forward and begin to get some justice for that. And so it's given...and survivors, we can think about the Southern Baptist Convention—we can think about all the survivors, you know? I mean, in fact, a lot of this played out on social media! Megan Lively, whose story helped lead to the firing of Paige Patterson from Southwestern, that actually did play out on social media, where she identified who she was on social media. So I think social media is really helpful.
Pete
It's leveling the playing field in some sense, because—
Beth
It is indeed.
Pete
—because the powerful people can't control it.
Beth
Right!
Pete
Right. So that's what's happening. Okay.
Beth
Yeah. And that causes a great deal of concern.
Pete
Doesn't it though? Yeah.
Beth
You can't control their voices, and you don't know what they're going to say. And there's also a lot of, you know, anxiety about social media, like, "Who do we listen to? How do I know this is a person I should listen to? How do I know that, you know, why do you say not to listen to this person?" You know, so I think it's this question of authority. Which is interesting, because that also stems back to thinking about Reformation theology—where does biblical authority lie? So we see, you know, on social media, it's almost a, you know, it's almost a free for all, in some sense. There's not clear rules. And so that opens the door to this toxic culture and this lack of civil dialogue, civil discourse, and, you know, it also leads to powerful people being able to lash out against people that they disagree with, who don't have very many followers and bury them.
I think that, you know, this bullying that happens on Twitter is very real. So I think, you know, it's a hard space to navigate, it's something I was not prepared for, there have been moments that I’m not sure if it's worth it or not to stay out there. But yet what makes it worth it is that your voice can be heard by people who need to hear your voice. And so that's something I think, you know, I see tweets from people who say they feel like they're shouting into the darkness, that nobody's listening to them. And actually, chances are much more likely that somebody is listening to them. And so I think that, you know, the possibility of connection, and of hearing other people is so much greater in the space of social media than it is in sort of just our regular daily interactions, where our access to this type of information is much more limited. And we might be much more tempted to stay within our own spheres that we know. So our own little echo chambers. So, you know, it's a hard place, but it's also a place that has just transformed so much.
Jared
Well, you've been, again, we have the luxury of getting to talk to you now a couple of years after...Actually, I lose track of COVID times. But you know, your book's been out for a while and you know, we get to kind of reflect on your experiences online. Is there anything—you said, you know, it's challenging, and it's very difficult, but have there been lessons learned? Like you said, there probably are people feeling unheard and wanting to talk about these things and talk about their experiences, and do it in a way though, that maybe can avoid some of the pain that you've gone through. Are there any, you know, lessons learned that you can share?
Beth
So I think a good lesson and this is one that I often tell my graduate students—is that public social media means it's public. And so remembering that anything you say can be heard by somebody and picked up and used by somebody. So it doesn't...Now, that's not to scare people from saying things. It's just remembering that somebody is, the chances are somebody's going to see it. And so that can lead to being more thoughtful about what you say. I think one of the lessons very early on that I learned was that it's very important to admit when you're wrong on Twitter. Things happen so fast. And in some ways, you know, it's like a conversation. And so sometimes you say things in conversations that may not be exactly accurate, or you got some fact confused or something like that and Twitter actually is a conversation where you can go back and correct that. And I think it's really important that we correct when we're, when we either misjudge somebody on Twitter or we make a statement that ends up not being absolutely correct about something. And I think that can provide...That provides a really good model for others to see people admitting that they're wrong. I think also, if you get a reputation for doing that, then when people, you know, nitpick your ideas—I think about, you know, I've been teaching at the college level since the late 90s in grad school, and I think if somebody paid attention to every single word I said—
[All laughing]
—over that time, I'd be in a lot of trouble, probably!
Beth
Because, you know, and so Twitter pays attention to every word that you say. And so if you develop...If you're always defending yourself and saying, "Oh, I was always right about this all the time!" You know, first of all, that's not true. And secondly, you know, it leads to that polarization and people not listening, you know. Only people who already agree with you are going to listen to you. So if you want people who don't agree with you to listen to you, then having that posture of, "Yeah, you know, sometimes I am wrong, if I'm wrong, I'm going to tell you I'm wrong. And then we can keep this conversation going forward." And so if you want more people to hear you who may not agree with you, that's a really good posture to take and I've learned that. Because, you know, I tell people, my audience isn't the people who agree with me. I'm not preaching to the choir. I'm trying to get people who are living in complementarian spaces—and complementarianism is the most recent iteration of male headship/female submission—And so I'm trying to get people in those spaces to hear me. And so it doesn't do me any good to alienate them.
Jared
With that, it's a great segue, because I wanted, as we come to the end of our time, I wanted to go back to the book, and ask—as an academic, what was the purpose for which you wrote the book? Did it accomplish that? Did it surprise you in some ways, like what was the intention?
Pete
Yeah, what were you thinking? [Laughs]
Jared
The intention versus the impact?
Beth
So you know, I didn't intend to write this book, I really never did. This book...I was approached to write this book based on some things, public media things I'd been doing—I've since also learned that Kristen Du Mez pointed some people my way based upon some talks that she'd heard me give. And so when I was asked to write the book, it was this moment where I was distanced enough from what had happened to us—from my husband being fired—that I was, I felt I could talk about it reasonably. I also had a better sense of what had happened. And it was also when the Church Too, Me Too, and you know, the stuff with Paige Patterson, the SBC, the Southern Baptist Convention, was beginning to have, you know, all of the sex scandal stuff was just beginning to start coming out. And I realized, I was like, you know what? I might be able to help in this situation. Because I can pull some pieces together that aren't being pulled together, and maybe get people to realize that there is a different way to be a faithful Christian, and to think about women's roles in the church, and in broader society, and to maybe, you know, help speak into this culture that had become so dangerous and toxic for so many women and even men as well. So that's really, you know, I've said before, it took me a while to agree to write it. I was very hesitant. I was afraid to write it.
Pete
[Hums in agreement]
Beth
I'm a pretty introverted person, I've become more introverted through this process.
[Pete laughs]
You know, I like, keep my eyes down when I'm out in public so I don't make eye contact with people. And that's not, you know, it's interesting the impact that it's had on me but yet, at the same time, knowing what I know now, I would have made the decision to write it because it has been incredible watching it change people's lives. And that's just amazing. To write something that actually is helping women. Like I'm going to an ordination on Sunday from a woman who read my book, and now is being ordained. That is just incredible to be a part of that. So I'm very thankful that I had the chance to write it. But it is...I had no idea what was going to happen. And it has not been a fun ride.
Pete
Yeah, no. Well, can we just, you know, as we come to our conclusion—that last point that you just made. I was at a conference about a month ago and part of a panel and afterwards I spoke with with a woman who's a scholar—her field is more biblical studies—but she's writing a book, she's begun sort of pushing it on social media and she said to me, "I am getting some of the most vile things ever said to me, and even a death threat." And it's one thing…I mean, I really applaud you. And I think, you know, we do this too at the Bible for Normal People, we're willing to put up with things, with getting things out there for people who benefit from it. And there is always the block button, you know? You don't have to listen to people's crap, you just move on. But what about those people that are not just disagreeing with you strongly, but are—they want a pound of flesh? How do you handle that?
Beth
Yeah, so...I used to not block very many people, because I had sort of this thing that if I wanted people to hear me, who don't agree with me, I shouldn't block them.
Pete
Yeah, you're naive. Go ahead, anyway. [Laughs]
Beth
I was naive and stupid. Yes. And then reality hit me. And I was like, "They're not listening to me. All they're trying to do is keep other people from listening to me." So I block them! [Laughs] I have no, you know, I mean, I block pretty fast now.
Pete
Well, I think Brené Brown said something, I mean, I picked it up years ago or something like that: "They haven't earned the right to sit at the table."
Beth
Right!
Pete
Something like that, she said. Yeah, that was a really good insight.
Beth
That is exactly right. You know, they haven't, they haven't earned that right. And they're not interested in listening. You know, I think I've also done this with some of the reviews that have come out from people who—their main goal behind the reviews is to keep other people from reading.
Pete
Yes.
Beth
And I had to make a decision early on, was I going to respond to all these things? Or was I not? And so, you know, I decided pretty early on that some of it, there's just no point in responding to some of these very bad faith responses.
Pete
I mean, people see through it anyway.
Beth
Yeah. So you know, so you have to choose who to engage with and where's going to be the biggest bang for your buck? And I mean that not in a monetary sense. But where can you be heard?
Jared
Right.
Beth
And so yeah.
Jared
Well, thank you so much for the work that you have done and continue to do to get that message out, just like you said, the impact that your book has had, and also understanding the costs that it’s come at to you. And so just again, like Pete said, I applaud you for that. Thank you for bringing it out into the world. And thanks for jumping on the podcast with us. We really appreciate it.
Beth
Thanks for having me.
[Outro music plays]
Jared
Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you want to support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just want to give a little money, go to TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/give.
Pete
And if you want to support us and want a community, classes, and other great resources, go to TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/join.
Jared
And lastly, it always goes a long way, if you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show.
Outro
You’ve just made it through another episode of The Bible for Normal People! Don't forget you can also catch the latest episode of our other show, Faith for Normal People, wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by The Bible for Normal People podcast team: Brittany Prescott, Savannah Locke, Stephanie Speight, Natalie Weyand, Stephen Henning, Tessa Stultz, Haley Warren, Nick Striegel, and Jessica Shao.
[Outro music ends]
[Beep signals blooper clip]
Pete
We thought we could...Jared thought we could start with the question: Why do you hate men?
Jared
Oh my gosh...
Beth
I think that's a great question to start with! I've gotten lots of those accusations lately.
[Jared and Pete laugh heartily]
[Beep signals next clip]
Jared
The notes say, "Jared to give a sincere endorsement with some sass."
Pete
Yeah...You need help with the sass part?
Jared
Oh, yeah! The sass part. That's what I have a hard time with.
Pete
[Laughing]
Jared
Not the sincere endorsement. [Laughing]
Pete
I think you need help with all of this thing.
[Beep signals end of episode]
