Episode 65: Angela Patterson – The Faith of Gen Z

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Pete: Before we jump into today’s episode, we wanted to tell you about our October class led by Jared called: The Bible is Not a Rule Book. 

Jared: That’s right. I’ll be teaching on Tuesday, October 28th from 8:00 to 9:00 PM Eastern Time, and I’m gonna be talking about how most of us, even the non-evangelicals among us have been told the Bible’s job is to hand us moral answers.

Sometimes that looks like a rule book. Sometimes that’s treating it like a crystal ball that can tell us our purpose in life. So how can we use the Bible in a way that’s helpful without making it try to be something it was never intended to be? 

Pete: So Jared will look at problems with the rule book approach, problems with the magic eight ball or crystal ball approach, and practical ways the Bible can be used in our life, leaving those other approaches behind.

So mark your calendars for October 28th from 8:00 to 9:00 PM Eastern Time, and go to thebiblefornormalpeople.com/rulebook to sign up. Sign up today.

Jared: Well today on Faith for Formal People, it’s just me, Jared, and I’m talking about the faith of Gen Z with Angela Patterson.

Dr. Angela Patterson is a media psychologist who specializes in technology’s effects on religious and spiritual development. She’s the head of content at Springtide Institute, a nonpartisan non-profit organization that engages the power of social science to learn from and about young people, ages 13 to 25.

In addition to all that, this episode is extra special because instead of Quiet Time at the end of the interview, we’re gonna feature reflections from members of our own Gen Z cohort group who participated in conversations about faith, the Bible, and life over the last year as a part of a new program here at Bible for Normal People.

So special thanks to our co-leaders of that group, Cambrie Vergeire and Charlotte McAdams, for all the work they did in coordinating the program and to Claire Nelson who came up with the idea in the first place. Alright, let’s dive in. 

Angela: These young people not only want to be connected in a meaningful way to their peers and to adults and ideally to a higher power God, whatever that might be, but they also want everybody else to be able to be in that space and be there authentically and be there in their full selves.

Jared: Angela, welcome to the podcast.

Angela: Hi Jared. It’s good to be on the podcast. 

Jared: Good. I’m glad to hear that. Sometimes some people say it’s not good to be on the podcast, so it’s great. It’s great to hear. Um, we’re off to a good start already. 

Angela: Yes, I’m thrilled. 

Jared: Good. Alright. Can you give, uh, uh, our listeners a quick snapshot about.

Um, Springtide and the work you do around the spiritual lives of young people, it’s, I’m sure a lot of people haven’t heard of spring tide. So what is it that, what you guys, what do you guys do? 

Angela: Well, Springtide is not that old. It’s only about five years old. And basically it’s a group of psychologists and sociologists, um, who use social science to understand the religious and spiritual lives of young people.

And so we, uh, study young people 13 to 25, and we research them to know them better and center their voices. We share what we learn, and then we also track generational trends to kind of see what’s coming next. We try to stay on, on the edge and so our work traditionally as I mentioned, has focused on religion and spirituality, but in the past couple years we have branched out to how faith intersects with other things.

Namely mental health and politics, and we hope to have some other, uh, kind of cultural institutions that we investigate in the years to come. But that’s where we are right now. 

Jared: Fantastic. I, I’m, I’m gonna show my cards. I really wanted you to be on the podcast so that you can help me understand my children.

So that’s really what we’re-

Angela: Yes, this is a common thread that we, that we hear, happy to dissect them. Yes. 

Jared: So whenever we talk about, um, that 13 to 25, maybe give us some indicators, because I think a lot of times online, these millennial, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, these are thrown around and we don’t really know the parameters of that.

So when we talk like Gen Z or Gen Alpha, what are the age ranges that we’re talking about to kind of put some concrete numbers to it? 

Angela: Absolutely. And keep in mind that these, uh, classifications are often arbitrary. There’s no governing body naming these, right. Uh, but nonetheless, um, Gen Z is roughly ‘97 to 2012.

Um, but then Gen Alpha also supposedly starts around 2010. So, um, yeah, there’s a little bit of an overlap. Probably it’ll be a little sandwich generation, kind of like what we have with Gen X and millennials. Um, but roughly, Gen Zs are ages 13 to 28 at this point, and then the oldest of Gen Alpha would be 13 or 14.

Jared: Okay, good. Um, it, it’s funny, I’m taking a minute here to actually put my kids in here to see like, okay, where do they fit? All right, that’s good. How 

Angela: How old are they? 

Jared: Um, they range from 19 to 11, so, okay. 

Angela: Yeah. So they’re, they’re spanning both of these. So you’ve got a Gen Alpha for sure. Yep. Your 11-year-old.

Jared: Yep. Yep. And then a lot of Gen Z, they give each other a hard time. They give, they give the youngest a hard time for being Gen Alpha, so, um, because they’re so mature as Gen Z folks. 

Angela: So, so, so mature. Yeah. I have to ask. Is your 11-year-old using some of the terminology that I see on social that’s supposedly Gen Alpha?

Jared: Oh yeah, yeah. Okay. For sure. It’s hard to know when they’re using it, ironically, and when they’re using it seriously, because it, no one wants it to be too serious. So it’s a little bit of like, I don’t know what, what, I don’t know how it’s all happening, but yeah. 

Angela: It’s happening around you though. 

Jared: It is happening around me. Okay. So let’s talk about the spiritual lives of these folks, because I think a lot of, there are a lot of our listeners who probably do have kids that are in this age range and trying to understand the trends and what’s the culture and the context. So, you know, from my, I kind of half-hearted internet research, it was like this religious, spiritual, but not religious, um, is kind of the, maybe a label for Gen Z folks, but maybe prove that, disprove that.

What does the research say about how Gen Z are identifying in broad brush strokes spiritually? 

Angela: Yeah. Okay. So I’m gonna give you the short answer and then I’m gonna give you a longer answer. 

Jared: I’d love it. 

Angela: The short answer is that our data show that many young people identify as religious. 

Jared: Okay, good. 

Angela: But okay, let me go down the rabbit hole now.

So each year of Springtide’s existence, we’ve asked questions that fall into basically four areas of faith life. So identity, belief, community, and practice. And since we look at, uh, people of all faiths and no faiths, we kind of lump them all together. We don’t normally segment them out into people who are Christian or used to be Christian or have never been Christian, that sort of thing.

Um, but here’s what I know from the macro. Um, when we ask young people if they identify as religious or spiritual, which we have done for five years now, those numbers always fall somewhere into the 60 and 70% range. So, if they’ve been at least slightly religious, if that’s how they, um, identify, those numbers generally start in the upper sixties and can go all the way up to 71% is what we have in 2024.

And then with spiritual, if they said yes, I’m at least slightly spiritual, 79% in 2024 said that they were at least slightly spiritual. So when you think about those numbers, that’s a lot of young people that are claiming some degree of either, yes, I have a religious identity, or yes, I have a spiritual identity.

Um, so that tells us as social scientists that there’s a significant number of young people that see value in holding these identities, which is great. 

Jared: Yeah. 

Angela: Um, that they see some value in it for some reason. And that’s some of the things that we dig into. So that’s one little tidbit. When we think about belief when we, when we ask this question in 2024.

42% of young people said, I know a higher power exists and I have no doubt about it. Um, which that’s a, that’s a pretty large number, um, for a question of this nature. 

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: Uh, because to say such a thing with such certainty is novel in any, you know, instance, but especially in social science. So, um, when you couple that with the 30% that say they believe more than they doubt, you’ve got a large majority that are on the belief side of that spectrum.

Jared: Okay. 

Angela: Um, but not only do they feel connected to a higher power, they also feel connected to all of humanity and nature. We hear about nature a lot, um, in terms of, you know, wanting to steward nature, in terms of finding deeper connections in nature. The beauty of nature, there’s a lot spiritually that happens with this generation in and around nature. 

Um, now when it comes to religious and spiritual practice, we have a laundry list of things that we ask, hey, is this a religious or spiritual practice that you engage in? Um, but church going isn’t necessarily one of those. Um, in 2024, we had 47% of the young people we surveyed said they never or rarely attend service.

So you’ve got a lot of, a lot of young people kind of not on the end of that spectrum, but in 2024, 45% said that they still pray. Um, 54% said they spend time in nature and 56% said art is my thing. That is where I’m connecting in a spiritual or religious sense. Um, so that’s just a little bit of a snapshot.

One other thing I think that’s important to note through our work is that we’ve kind of been able to determine that Gen Z, religion and spirituality and how they experience it is anything but linear. Uh, perhaps it’s a lot less linear than perhaps you or I have, have experienced. We find that that kind of four elements comprise their journey, and that’s curiosity, flexibility, connection, and wholeness.

And I’ll quickly explain each of those. Curiosity. Gen Z folk want to ask the big questions. They’re curious, um, about different religious traditions and spiritual traditions, and they don’t necessarily have the qualms about maybe exploring them at the same time that others might. Um, and they want adults to walk alongside them in that curiosity journey.

Um, in a non-judgmental kind of way. Right? This sort of, um, unbiased accompaniment. So there’s curiosity and then the flexibility. Like I said, they, they see the value in a number of different traditions. So part of this, part of their journey is just figuring out what all of those things are and then how they relate to their own spiritual and religious values, beliefs, preferences, all that sort of thing.

The connection element is huge for this generation. Um, these young people not only want to be connected in a meaningful way to their peers and to adults and ideally to a higher power God, whatever that might be, but they also want everybody else to be able to be in that space and be there authentically and be there in their full selves.

If they see that that dynamic is not present, then that might be one of the things that pushes them out of that faith community or organization, is if I can’t be my full self and everybody else can’t, not for me. Uh, so that connection element is huge. Um, and then wholeness, same thing. The authenticity angle.

I need to be able to look at my religious or spiritual leaders and see authenticity. I need to see it in the people who are around me. I need to be able to demonstrate it with my peers. All of those things. So those are four of the kind of main elements that young people are really experiencing as they go along their journey.

Jared: Would you say that they associate these four when, when the questions asked about their religious or spiritual lives, they’re connecting these four components as uh, an importantpart of that experience for them? Is that what you’re saying? 

Angela: Yeah. Well, I would say that these four elements show up in varying degrees depending on the person.

Jared: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Angela: Um, and not all four are always present, and especially not to the same degree. 

Jared: Right. 

Angela: Um, but I would argue just based on what we have kind of uncovered in talking to young people over these years, I do think that the authenticity and the connection angle is super important. Um, I don’t think anybody is saying, oh no, I don’t, I don’t need to actually talk to people and, and actually have meaningful relationship in my faith community.

I, I don’t think young people are saying that, in fact, because so much of their experience is mediated and comes through a screen, I think they value connection, especially what we might consider analog connections in ways that perhaps you and I’s generation didn’t value as much ’cause we just didn’t have to contend with relationship that way.

Jared: Yeah. It’s curious that, I think because things are so mediated with the screen that the idea of an unmediated connection almost takes on, it sounds like this spiritual element to it, like this is a, a kind of a sacred thing to connect with people and to connect with nature and connect with others in an unmediated way.

Angela: Absolutely. You know, we did a study in 2023 on the sacred because we were intrigued by young people’s experience and articulation of what the sacred is, especially those who might not have a religious background and have the language that, that, uh, those of us who grew up in a, in a tradition might have.

And one of the things that came up was they don’t necessarily experience these moments in distinct places or spaces, but they happen in moments and often in connection with others. So they absolutely see this kind of, you know, sacred awe-inducing experience within this transaction, within relationship.

And I think there was only about a quarter of young people that said that they had experienced these sorts of moments online, which gives you a whole swath of people saying, no, they almost always have connection, but it’s in person in some form or fashion. And so I, I do think you’re onto something that you, you know, these young people really do value that sort of connection.

Jared: So maybe, I wanna zoom back a little bit and, and try to give a framework for this. So classically, James Fowler has these stages of faith, and, and I’d be, first of all, I’d love for you to talk about this and, and this may be a new concept for folks, so maybe give them this framework and what that is, but then let’s put Gen Z in this context and see can we, can we identify generationally where people start and leave off?

And is there a difference in the generations of where do we- I’m thinking of my own experience with my parents and their religious and spiritual upbringing and what they passed on to me, which in some ways is sort of standing on their shoulders. Like it allowed me to maybe enter at a different place than they entered.

And I’m curious if that is continuing on in Gen Z or how that manifests. So maybe give us that framework and then how does Gen Z fit into that? 

Angela: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I will say James Fowler wrote a whole book on the stages of faith. Yes. So I’m going to, I’m gonna shove this way down.

Jared: Oversimplify it. Meme-ify it, Angela. We need this on TikTok.

Angela: I’m gonna try to, um, and, but I will absolutely. I’m gonna lay that out for us and then I’ll absolutely make some observations. Based on what I’ve seen with our work at Springtide. Um, okay. So Fowler in a nutshell, back in the late seventies, early eighties, Fowler created a model of faith development that basically presented what we call in the social sciences a stepwise progression of faith, meaning you go from one space directly to the other. 

Right. Um, and he kind of took some of the OG knowledge around adolescent development and the social sciences at the time, and then combined that with the dynamic elements of faith to create this. Right. So technically there are six stages. The sixth is not one people generally reach and I’ll, I’ll say why in a minute, but I’m gonna go quickly through the stages just to give you the trajectory. 

So the first stage is called intuitive projective faith. And this basically takes place from birth to seven. And it’s characterized by imitation and fantasy. If you’ve ever helped teach Sunday school to the littles, you know what intuitive, projective faith is, uh, stories, you know, big drawings, that sort of thing.

Um, but eventually the child grows up and learns that there’s a difference between fantasy and reality. And then we move into what is called mythic literal faith. And this is the elementary school years, roughly. If we’re, if we’re following the model discreetly, you know, discretely. This is where kids really start to claim faith as their own.

But they usually take the stories very literally. Um, if you’ve ever had an elementary school child ask you questions about the Bible, you might know this. Um, but usually they get to the point, obviously, I mean, not usually most of the time, get to the point where they’re able to realize something about these stories may not be adding up.

Um, and then that’s when we transition towards what we call synthetic conventional faith. And that’s basically the teenage years. And like so much of what happens in adolescence, their faith is largely defined in interpersonal terms. Right? I see my faith, but now I start to see it connecting to me and my school and my friends and my family.

It’s still, we’re still in our bubble, but it’s, we’re starting to kind of project our knowledge of faith outward to expand it. And what usually causes a transition at this point. ’cause now we’re getting into late teen years, early adulthood, right? Is that usually a person has an encounter of some sort or an experience that forces critical reflection on their beliefs.

Um, and according to Fowler, some people never move past this third stage. 

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: So, um, you know, it’s quite normal, you know, for some people just to lock in and be like, nope, this is my faith. I don’t really have critical reflection on it. I don’t ask a lot of questions. It just is what it is. 

Jared: But because of that, you have, because of that lack of experience, like they don’t have that experience, that catalytic experience that would force you to question and do that reflection.

Is that what you’re saying? 

Angela: Yep. According to this model? Yes. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. But so many of us do. 

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: Right? And so, um, even if you have that critical moment, you do some sort of discernment or some sort of critical reflection and still land back where you were. 

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: That’s okay too. Right?

But I, I won’t get caught, caught up in the movement. We’ll talk about that in a minute. So, um, the stage of young adulthood, when you have this critical reflection period and you’re like, oh, okay, I gotta figure out where my faith sits now that I’ve had this encounter. It’s called individuative reflective faith.

And this is where people are making sense of the dichotomies that they’re experiencing. I’m an individual, but now I’m part of the collective. Right? Um, this is how I feel, but this is what I know to be true. Or at least that’s what they told me is true. So we’re battling with all of these inner things, right?

And this usually leads to a more nuanced view of faith. But for some, even that nuanced view grows inadequate. And that’s when we get to conjunctive faith, which is the fifth stage, and that’s roughly midlife according to the model. 

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: Um, and that’s where you get really into the much deeper integration of the self and as it relates to your faith, your worldview, your outlook, and what you know to be true about faith in life because you’ve lived a little bit more.

Jared: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Angela: It’s just a, it, it gains even more nuance. Um, and that’s where a lot of people hang out until the end, you know? This stage six is called universalizing faith, and basically that’s where their faith gets so nuanced that they’re willing to risk it all for their, for their faith. And they usually are some sort of activist in some form or fashion.

So your MLKs, your Gandhis, your Mother Theresa’s end up in stage six, but. Fowler, at least at the time, was like, most people land in stage five. Um, and so there’s one important thing to note about the stages. As I noted before, this has been created 40, 45 years ago now. Yeah. 

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: Um, and most social science does, especially psychology and sociology doesn’t really use stepwise progressions anymore.

’cause we know so much more now about development. 

Jared: Yeah, yeah. 

Angela: And we know it’s not linear in that way. You’re, there’s a lot of, you know, moving forward, coming back, having different things come in from the external, you’re like, oh. And then that disrupts the process, that sort of thing. Um, so Fowler came back later in the nineties and was like, yeah, it’s not necessarily super clean.

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: Right. Um, and so we’re human beings with free will living in a complex world, it’s not gonna be that neat. To just go from one stage to another. You can regress, you can progress, you know, all sorts of things depending on what your environment is. And so when I studied this originally, my early work showed that yes, young people, which I was interviewing Gen Zers at the time, uh, they, they could in big capital letters, COULD move through the stages faster, mainly because of the onslaught of information that they’re exposed to.

Jared: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Angela: All the, all the time. Right? Yeah. Because it opens up their worldview so much wider.

Jared: Yeah. 

Angela: And so much faster. 

Jared: Yeah. 

Angela: Um, and in Springtide’s work, I absolutely see evidence, little pieces of evidence of this, um, young people asking critical questions about themselves and the world that I can say for myself, I was not asking at 15, 16, maybe even 20.

Gen Z has a very different experience of coming of age than you or I did. 

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: Um, and this world has already confronted them with realities on a mass scale that we just didn’t have to contend with at that age. Um, and so I could easily see that some of the teens that we’ve talked to could be in that stage of young adulthood according to Fowler’s theory as teenagers.

Um, especially if they’ve had to contend with their race or any of their other personal identities that impacts their experience of the world. If they’ve had to ask critical questions about who they are very early, then it’s much easier for them to consider these critical questions in the faith space at the same time.

Jared: Yeah. 

Angela: Um, so depending on what’s going on in your environment, it certainly could push you through these stages a little faster. 

Jared: You know, and I have, I have a couple of follow-ups. I want to try to keep in order in my brain. But the first is, um, you talked about this, the synthetic to the individuative of, or reflective, and that’s usually brought along by some experience is this onslaught of information, this experience.

‘Cause I could imagine growing up for most people, for most of human history, it’s very contextualized. Like I only get so much information and usually that reinforces what I was already thinking. And so it’s really strengthening those and it takes a lot of an experience. I think of it as like a rubber band stretching to really break that rubber band would take a lot.

And it feels like if you’re getting a lot more information at a younger age, when you don’t have that identity being reinforced over and over it, it sort of can create these experiences or these kind of faith crises or just not crises, but things that are questioning the inherited traditions earlier. I could see how that would sort of be the catalyst to push you into this individuative sooner.

Um, do you see, do you see the ability, because Fowler and I don’t know how psychology, you can kind of update us on all of this, tracked it with stages of development as they are. I guess my real question is, if they’re getting these experiences, younger ages, do they have the capacity to really understand what’s happening with them and be able to frame it in healthy ways?

Are we adaptable in that way? 

Angela: Well, I, we might be. I do know that biology though, is it, in terms of psychological development, the processes remain largely the same. -You know, their pre-frontal cortex still doesn’t really develop- 

Jared: Exactly 

Angela: Until later. Right. Yeah. Um, so I would say, um, you, I mean that certainly.

They certainly could have the capacity, depending on their external environment and how much help and support they were getting. Okay. But on their own, it seems to me, and I’m happy to debate this with others, um, that they would still not have the hardware in some ways to be able to make sense of what they’re seeing.

Um, I think that’s really kind of one of the crucial places and touch points that trusted adults, but especially trusted adults in ministry can have, is I know I can go to this person and they’re gonna help me make sense of what I’m seeing in Palestine. They’re gonna help me make sense of what I’m seeing in Syria.

You know, what I’m seeing in the United States. What I saw at my school, like, you know, there’s, name your thing. Um, there’s so much to be sorted out and that’s why it’s so critical to have trusted adults around who can help them shape what they’re seeing because yes, on an intellectual level, can they understand the parts and pieces?

They might not get all the nuance, but yeah, they can understand the parts and pieces. Do they know what to do with it though? Not always. 

Jared: Yeah. Right. 

Angela: And that’s where the trusted adult element is very key. 

Jared: Yeah. Well, I wanna, this is taking us a little bit further down the track of, of being really practical and, and I was gonna do that later, but I’d like to do it now because you mentioned earlier a very, I think, helpful phrase, and I’m putting some pieces together.

You mentioned this unbiased accompaniment and what, yeah, what you’re saying. That’s, that’s the pieces I’m putting together is they don’t have the hardware necessarily to process all of this in an integrative way yet, and they maybe need some help and support however. Is there a way to do that without reinforcing the earlier stages?

Is there a way to provide that, uh, unbiased accompaniment in a way that actually is giving them that support on the way to this individuative and then conjunctive integrated faith expression? I think that’s good language to capture where I think a lot of parents struggle with teenagers, is I don’t know how to provide support without providing answers that just reinforce an old model that even my, even I myself don’t adhere to anymore.

I’m in a different space now and I see my teenager with these questions, but I don’t know how to be that unbiased accompaniment. Maybe I’m misusing that term, but can you say more about that? We don’t have the hardware, but we’re getting exposed to it younger. There’s a place for adults, but how do we do that in a way that’s gonna help them along?

Angela: Sure, sure. No, it’s a great question and I think I, I wanna take some of the burden off the parent to be the scholar theologian, all-knowing person. 

Jared: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Angela: It is totally fine to say, I don’t know, or my own understanding of this has now been challenged because of X, Y, Z. Right, right. Let’s try to find out together that’s unbiased, accompaniment.

Um, knowing that you don’t have all the answers, and that’s okay, because the young people that we’re talking to don’t expect adults to have all the answers. 

Jared: Well, maybe it’s like the, maybe one way to say that is I immediately connected to the four things you said are most important in this generation is if we show up with curiosity, flexibility, wholeness, and just a desire to connect, that’s gonna go a long way in the process.

Angela: A long way. Okay. Right. Because you’re creating a safe environment for me to bring all this stuff that I’m hearing and seeing and don’t quite understand, and I can dump it out on our proverbial table and we’re gonna sort it out. Um, and we all have a space in place at this table and, you know, nobody’s dictating anything.

Um, now there could be someone who is an authority on something and we might be able to recognize that. And young people might be like, you know what, yes, this person did study this for 20 years, maybe I should listen. Right, right. But we’ve already established that this is a safe space to unpack.

So I think sometimes when young people feel like they’re being dictated to, that’s when the resistance comes. But if I, if I come to a young person and I’m like, you know, that’s a great question. I don’t really know either. Um, but we should figure it out, the best that we can and we might not come away with a full answer, but hopefully we can gain some more understanding.

So I think just doing that alone is half the battle. Maybe three-fourths of the battle, honestly. 

Jared: Yeah. Can you say more about, uh, because you said, uh, parents, we want to not have it be, I think there’s, we, in my circles, there can be a lot of pressure where the parent has to be everything because we don’t have a lot of social structure outside of parents for that speaking into, there’s not a multi-generational space.

So let’s bring church into this. You talk about church leaders, and how do Gen Z. Uh, feel about church as an institution? You said the research says that, you know, uh, I can’t read my own handwriting. 47% never or rarely go to church. So what are ways that we can think outside the box or ways that churches can be more of this presence?

I’m just trying to think of how do we provide socially and culturally a space for these Gen Z to go? And it doesn’t always have to be the parents who maybe don’t, aren’t equipped to be able to do this. 

Angela: Absolutely. No. The church, the big C church in particular is in an ideal position to help do unbiased accompaniment if they can be unbiased enough.

Um, we sometimes we, we have to, to open up a little bit-

Jared: It’s a big if.

Angela: Um, to meet people where they are. And that’s true of anyone. Yeah. Um, but especially for, for Gen Z, and you’re right, when we have asked young people this question in the past about their trust in organized religion or even trust in just institutions in general, it’s usually very low.

Um, and so that is true, and that is something to contend with, right? Is getting past perhaps some mental maps of what they know organized religion to be. So I’m not gonna downplay that that does exist. Um, but I can say though, I feel like with, with some certainty, that young people would love to have some guidance and membership in any space they’re in.

You know what I mean? And faith communities are no exemption. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, we’ve seen young people really, really want meaningful relationships with adults that they know they can trust. 

Jared: Yeah. 

Angela: Um, again, relationships, they can be vulnerable, not be judged. They can ask the hard questions.

All of those things. Um, they want to be seen and heard and loved and valued for who they are. 

Jared: Yeah. 

Angela: And you’re ask, because you’re asking me about what churches and church folk can do. This is part of it, right? And notice I’m not talking about anything about dogma or belief. This is, this is all relational in order to, to make some initial connections that give the foundation for this to happen. 

But, um, I think in terms of specifically how the church could adjust, I think there’s three questions that I really wanna pose. Um, and some are more, this first one’s more practical, but the others are more mindset-related.

So the first one, how do young people function in the life of the church? Are they just there for youth group? Um, do adults interact with them outside of telling them what to do or where to be or what they should be doing? Um, how can there be more co-creation with the young people in your space? So that’s one operational consideration.

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: Um, but in a, in a more mindset-related aim, are you ready to have your faith questioned? 

And I’m, and I’m not saying it as it’s an adversarial conversation, you must defend your beliefs because I’m talking about, can you sit in the discomfort of not knowing the answers to the hard questions kind of thing.

That’s what, that’s more of what I’m talking about. Are you able to say, I don’t know, or I don’t really understand? How, what is your ability to hold space for somebody who is at that point, um, who has questions, who might have doubts? Um, do you have the capacity really for that level of interaction?

And so that’s an internal work. Um, and then perhaps most importantly, how ready are you to love young people if they decide to not believe what you believe? 

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: What does your faith compel you to do in that instance? Um, I think that’s an important question that everyone in ministry, if they want to be interacting with young people, needs to answer for themselves because that is a, that’s a real reality.

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: You know, they might just not land in your camp and how, how will you love them anyway? 

Jared: Yeah. Yeah. So I think that’s very well said and I think that’s a great set of questions for churches. ‘Cause I know churches all over the place who are like, why can’t we get young people? And I think these are great questions.

And the only thing I would add, which I feel free to correct me, is I do think that there’s some, uh, conflict in values, um, and you said it’s not about the dogma, but also like how we show up and how we behave. These, I don’t know of many churches that explicitly on their list of mission and values and vision have curiosity, flexibility, right?

So I think there’s a, there’s a little bit of, uh, soul searching for religious institutions to say, what are our core values and do we need to, do, we need to reconsider? And in this way, I mean, what I see as, as hopeful, and I wanna be in the position not of, of authoritative, but as learner to say, wow, what can I learn that these, these core values show up again and again in the spiritual lives of young people.

Where have we not shown up in these ways? ‘Cause these seem like really good and beautiful things to me. So it’s like, how do I see this and how do I advocate for these things to be more centered in my, uh, church and in my congregation? So I think it’s a good, right, it’s a good lesson to be learned here.

Angela: I mean, imagine if we did center those things and we went into relationship with young people with a posture of I’m actually learning from you. Right. How can your questions and your doubt actually strengthen my faith? Because it could, or it could rocket a little bit. And I think that’s what people are most scared of, right?

Jared: Right. So I think that’s why your questions are so helpful. It’s like, are you ready? Can you show up as a non-anxious, unbiased person in the presence of all of these questions and flexibility, things that probably don’t rock the Gen Z person. That is, that’s just the thing they value. 

Angela: Correct, correct. But you know, us older folk might need a, we might need a beat.

You know what I mean? Which is fine and that’s part of admitting that too is great. But if we’re, if we’re operating under those four elements that we talked about earlier, that’s okay. ‘Cause we’re, remember we’re bringing our full selves to the table. Right. And so you having issue with that, that’s okay too if you’re authentic about it.

Jared: One other topic I wanna, I want to cover, ’cause I wanted to make sure we covered the church thing. ‘Cause I think that’s really important for people of, of our generation trying to understand our kids and Gen Z and faith and, and how, how do we, how do we manage our own expectations of what that’s gonna look like?

And I appreciate that. It’s like, look in the mirror. A lot of it is we have to. Adapt and see how we can learn from this next generation about, uh, I think a faithful and loving expression. And it’s not just like getting them to be more like us. 

Angela: Getting ’em in the door so they can start tithing or whatever the thing is. We need to look at the model. 

Jared: Agreed. But the other thing is, um, I, I guess really it’s built around these tensions, so I wanted to kind of hear that Gen Z wants mentorship and guidance, but they also are wary of the church. So we talked about that as a tension. What about, um, you know, Gen Z seems to be, or often is called, an anxious generation, but also very mindful of mental health.

And so, and I didn’t hear, I, I would just say in my generation we did not connect the dots. There wasn’t faith in mental health. Were not spoken about in the same sentence. Agree. But I can imagine Gen Z connecting those dots a lot more. So what are we seeing? Um, in terms of spirituality and faith practices in this pursuit of wellbeing and mental health?

Angela: It’s a great question because literally, I would say 90% of the young people that we interview mention mental health in some form, regardless of the topic. It, I mean, it comes up, it just comes out okay. And it’s like, okay, it’s front and center for everyone. Um, but in 2022, our study focused primarily on these intersections between faith and mental health, and we found that 55% of the young people that we surveyed believe that their religion and spirituality matters for their mental health.

57% said that their spiritual practices positively impact their mental health. But I mean, this’ll be no, um, surprise to you. We hear in our interviews a lot also about church hurt. There’s a, there’s a lot of it among young people. There’s a lot of it among most people at this point, let’s be honest.

But young people, and, um, and they usually come down to they didn’t feel accepted for who they were, um, or whether that was real or perceived. Right. Um, or not being able to reconcile what they are being taught with what they believe and that tension that maybe they held inside, maybe they expressed in whatever way wasn’t accepted.

Right. Um, so both of those obviously negatively affect mental health, but we also hear about some less extreme ways that it, um, can hurt mental health or just being involved in, in the church. So we might have been told, um, as young people, if we were having a problem to just pray about it, which, yes, if that is part of your tradition, part of your belief, yes. 

And you might also need meds. Might we, you know? Um, and so we’ve heard a number of young people say that those sorts of things, while well intentioned, are dismissive and, and in turn hurtful. And that doesn’t help for mental health. Um, but conversely, what does help, we talked earlier about these spiritual practices. 

A lot of young people are still praying, they’re still reading texts. They’re definitely in nature. They’re definitely creating art for sure. Um, and I think in terms of something practical that folks in ministry could do, how can you, um, maximize what nature can do? What I, some of us are urban-bound, like me, I’m in the middle of a big city.

But how might you be able to incorporate nature into the experiences of your young people? Um, and then also we know that purpose, having purpose does a lot for mental health. So how might, um, ministry leaders or parents be able to facilitate greater purpose in a young person’s life, they say to us through the data that that is something that really helps to ground them and give them a sense of something greater around them.

Also, and we haven’t studied this in particular, but I have, I’ve seen this in other places and so I wanted to raise it here. We have had some young people say that they really value rituals. 

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Angela: Um, and our traditions are so full of all of them. And so, you know, a lot of our young people are introduced to these traditions at very young ages, and they have a child’s understanding of them.

So there could be some value, depending on your young people, for people in ministry to take the young people back to some of those core rituals and let them look at it with an older brain. And see if there’s any value that they could take away for their own, um, for their own wellness, both spiritual and mental.

Um, it might behoove some of us adults to do that, to look at some of these rituals with an adult brain. Uh, but especially for, for young people, that can be really powerful just to reintroduce them to the things that already exist within the faith. 

Jared: Well, this has been a fascinating conversation.

I wanna end with a question that we’ve, we’ve already touched on, but I, I wanna hear more of it because it just, I’m, I’m ending this conversation so hopeful. Um, so as you look at all the data and the stories coming out of Springtide’s research, what gives you hope about spiritual lives of Gen Z?

Like where do you see this creativity resilience, this positive momentum? Because I’m coming away feeling kind of amped up about some of these positive values that I think would be great to see in more of our institutions and organizations and in older folks, frankly. So, yeah. Where do you see, yeah, what’s the hope?

Angela: We are continually pleasantly surprised by what we hear from young people. 

Jared: Mm. 

Angela: They are thoughtful and articulate, and they care deeply. I wanna bust that myth right now. This kind of complacence and apathy and, yeah, I mean, teens are gonna be teens 

Jared: Nonchalance to some degree, is the word I hear around my house all the time.

Yeah. 

Angela: But they, I, I really feel like Gen Z has a little something special when it comes to the depth of, of caring and, um, compassion that they are capable of. They might not display it all the time, but, um, we, we’ve been really pleasantly surprised to see that. And because they do care so much, there’s so much ripe fodder there for adults to pour into because they really do want to be connected.

They wanna be connected to the people next to them. They wanna be connected to a higher power. They want to matter. They, you know, they want to make a difference. And so we are always inspired by what we hear from young people and know that they have tremendous capacity, uh, to enrich our world, whether that’s in our faith communities or elsewhere.

And so that’s what gives us hope. This, and that’s why we keep doing this work, uh, because we know that today’s young people have so much to offer and the generations after them will also have so much to offer, but they definitely need the help of those older than them to navigate the way. 

Jared: Well, thank you Angela, for coming on and having this conversation.

You’re, you’re so good at taking that data and research and, and weaving it together into, again, the hopeful stories, but also a little bit of challenges to those of us who are taking care of some of these young folks still. 

Angela: Absolutely, absolutely. No, we love our work and we’re proud to do it.

Jared: When we asked our Gen Z cohort members, what do you wish older generations understood about how you experience faith? Here is some of what they said. 

Gen Z Cohort: I fear the elders in my life might accuse me of leaving when it gets hard. I don’t know if they see that the choice to step away is rooted, not in a flaky fairweather faith, but in a belief in a God that demands a fuller love.

I have been part of churches filled with kind people where I felt the Holy Spirit shaking in my spine and still needed to leave. I wish older generations knew my church hopping and church was not the absence of faith, but a commitment to it. It was the choice to believe myself, a child of God, and seek a community that honored the fullness of that.

I wish older generations would detach their social and cultural experiences of church from their view on what it looks like to be a Christian. My faith journey has been one of constant wrestling with God, with the Bible, with the church, and with myself. On the other side of my deconstruction, faith has been transformed from something given to me into something I have to choose moment by moment.

God calls us to be faithful within our context. Quite often choosing faith means choosing a path different from those who came before me. I wish older generations would understand that people have different internal experiences of faith, and that we aren’t experiencing something different because of sin or willful ignorance.

Personally, I’ve never had spiritual experiences that confirmed my Christian faith. I never saw miracles, signs, wonders, or even an answered prayer. 

My approach to faith, while it is often unpopular with older generations, was really founded by the older generations. I was raised in an environment of certainty and apologetics in faith, needing to always be ready to give an answer. 

From a young age, I was really invested in faith church and knowing what to say to point to God Ever since I was a child, older people in the church treated me like I was special, as I knew all the facts, how to act, how to speak, how to stand, how to dress, and how to defend my faith.

I remember arguing with public school teachers, convinced that I was pointing them to Jesus and away from Hell where they were surely headed. I was invested in all of this, groomed to dig deeper into the scriptures and to use my intellect to be able to clearly articulate the points that are important to the people in power in faith circles.

I wish that older generations would understand that it is impossible to continue to dig deeper and to have true convictions while spouting off the rhetoric that they perpetuate. It is incongruent with intellect, convictions, and understanding of scripture as I have learned more and more, digging deeper into the Word and relying on the Holy Spirit.

I wish that those people who filled me with pride in myself and what was right would understand that what is right is never as simple as black ink on white paper. I wish more people would understand that these have been issues since the beginning of Christianity, and the people who truly believe, not people who have fallen away, have had varying convictions about a variety of these issues, and that this differentiation of beliefs helps to make us more authentic and diverse.

Jared: We also asked our Gen Z cohort, what should a Christian community look like, sound like, act like, in your opinion? Here were some of their responses. 

Gen Z Cohort: A Christian community should always point to the hope of God’s transformation of the world in word and action. I believe it should look and sound like regular people who care deeply about one another and their community.

It should look like the upside down community Jesus preached about, where self concern does not rule the day. It should be the first to grieve all tragedy, celebrate all renewal and reconciliation, and call out the abuses and failings of power and greed. 

I’m convinced that the Western Church has lost the theology of the table. I believe that all Christian communities should be built around a common meal. When Jesus ate the last supper and taught that the bread was his body and the wine was his blood, he was not taking symbolic thimbles of food to be taken once in a while at a scheduled time. He was taking the most common food and the most common drink for any meal at that time.

Jesus wasn’t inventing a new ritual. He was saying, quote, “remember me every single time you eat.” Eating together in remembrance of Jesus should be central to our practice of faith. Eating together is intimate. It creates connection, community, and mutual love. And beyond this, it is the beginning of creating justice in your community.

It guarantees at least one quality meal a week for every person. Furthermore, when people see each other regularly around the table, they’ll get to know each other’s stories, needs and gifts. Mutual aid, and not the type that is mediated through a church office, will begin to be practiced naturally and a variety of voices will be elevated in teaching and worship.

Too much of the Western church is stage-facing. It turns the gathering of God’s people into an act of consumption. It turns worship and art into performance rather than celebration, and it turns pastors into authorities rather than shepherds. Church should be done around the dinner table. If I had my way, the first staff hire of a new church would be a cook, not a pastor.

A Christian community should be thoroughly Christ-like focused on orthopraxy far more than orthodoxy. We should be big tent, welcoming people from a variety of theological or philosophical perspectives. The focus of Christianity should be on radically loving and serving our neighbors to the glory of God, not on whether we intellectually ascend in the five solas or the virgin birth.

I now think that Christian community should be welcoming and not in a way that has the underlying tone of making someone be different from who they are, but rather being affirming. I think the church should be diverse, not only racially and ethnically, but in every other respect as well. Churches should be able to make the main thing, the main thing, and allow for freedom as the Holy Spirit convicts people about any other topic or issue.

I also think the church should be a community center, a place where people can feel safe to come and get genuine, immediate help. Communities with churches should be noticeably better off than communities that don’t, as the church should be helping the least of these no strings attached. Churches should be able to fully love all people no matter what, not only in word, especially the common sentiment of in word with underlying expectations, but also indeed churches should be full of people who are authentic, wonderfully, and inescapably human. 

No one is perfect. Why should I need to pretend? Can I not reflect Christ without maintaining this impossible facade? How would anyone feel safe to come and be when the expectation is portraying perfection in order to prove salvation? 

In my view, a community should be a space for growing, not in a sense of personal development, but in the sense of developing in the direction we feel we are called to.

It should also give tools and space to support one another and to help others. 

I envision a church that emphasizes caring for the marginalized and outcasts caring in a way that first listens to their stories and needs. Having an established doctrine or theology is important. Perhaps Christian communities can act as a thought partner with folks who are establishing their own beliefs.

Instead of correct beliefs being the hill to die on, the same amount of energy should be devoted to creating systems that listen to the oppressed and marginalized and take loving action accordingly. Essentially, we need freedom for diverse theological formation and greater benevolence ministry or social justice. 

Jared: We ask them, what are you reconstructing, if anything, when it comes to your faith? Then here’s how some of them answered. 

Gen Z Cohort: I am reconstructing the way God works in the world. I grew up believing that God directly intervenes through miracles for those with enough faith. Having left that behind, I am reconstructing the way God works in the world through people.

I’ve really been leaning on the words of Archbishop Desmond Tutu. God only has you.

Lately, holiness has been on my mind. Many modern evangelical holiness thought leaders might communicate how holiness is joyful and an unburden, some byproduct of loving Jesus. My experience is that we end up behaving with much more shame, condemnation, and striving.

On the other hand, a song frequently sung in my worship service states that we might live with clean hands and heal this land. I expect that I have more deconstruction and reconstruction in this area. I am currently exploring how the heart behind personal holiness is deeply connected to corporate wholeness. Rather than a checkbox, our just actions have a positive impact on the world around us in a tender and compassionate way. There is both a personal and societal element to holiness. They’re interconnected and extend much further than performing a certain way. 

Jared: When we asked our Gen Zers, how does your faith and your views on things like LGBTQ+  rights, racial justice, or climate change intersect, here’s what some of them had to say. 

Gen Z Cohort: I believe that the arc of the story of God’s people is toward a more whole creation continuing on through history. Humanity becomes more whole as we continue to include those who have been ostracized, lift up those who have been shoved down, and voluntarily give up our abundance to meet others’ needs.

Though that has been the project since the beginning, we have a talent for identifying in and out groups. Amassing wealth and power and protecting our wealth and power by diverting the attention of in groups against out groups. My faith leads me to continue the progress of inclusion, empowerment, and justice within my context, resisting the powers and temptations of othering, greed and abuse.

After a recent study through the Beatitudes in a small group, I sense that the teachings of Jesus are deeply connected to rights and justice for the marginalized. The vast majority of our systems tend to promote those that are on top where Jesus did quite the opposite. I’m currently navigating how to balance the personal relationship with Jesus that includes personal devotional practices, i.e. prayer, Bible reading, and songs along with social and environmental justice. 

When I reflect on the topics, it is easy to see the connection. However, in the actions of social justice, it is hard to remember that it is equally an act of devotion to God. Traditional evangelical habits die hard, even if my views have shifted. I hope to find myself eventually taking as much consistent action in the realm of social justice and environmental stewardship as I do with my personal devotional practices. 

Jared: We also ask, do you identify with a particular faith or spiritual practice? Why or why not? Here are some of those responses. 

Gen Z Cohort: I was evangelical Christian all my life, but I’ve gradually disconnected from that world. Now I’m open and available to spiritual things, but I’m humbly agnostic and I can’t bring myself to believe in dogmas without any sort of experience or evidence confirming it.

The short answer is I was recently confirmed as an Episcopalian. The long answer is that my connection to God is still deeply rooted in the Catholic family of my grandparents and the Baptist church I spent high school in. I feel closest to God with my hands in the air, listening to southern worship songs and most connected to the communion of saints when praying along the grooves of my grandmother’s rosary. To identify only with one faith practice would be to deny the DNA in my bones and the humid Florida air familiar to my lungs.

Creating a patchwork of practices is how I can still feel close to God as I wander. 

Jared: And finally we asked them, do you think the church is keeping up with the issues your generation cares about? And here’s how some of them felt about that. 

Gen Z Cohort: I believe that the church is keeping up with the issues Gen Z cares about.

People of God are engaged in those problems all over the world as a human institution. I can see the church trying. But it has a lot of letting go to do before it will be prepared to face the era to come. It has to let go of traditions and rituals that have lost their meaning. Let go of culturally ingrained understandings of what it means to be a church community and to let go of the lunacy of certainty when it comes to describing understanding and following God. Only then will the church be ready to adapt to the world we’re stepping into.

The American Evangelical Church today feels out of touch. This entity has been weaponized, politicized, and made exclusive for too long. The church has learned what people are polarized about and how to have strong enough stances to rally people, increasing funding and augmenting the number of salvations, baptisms, and visitors.

The target audience of many churches seems to be older, richer people, not young people or the least of these. Making the church out of touch and inaccessible for many young people who are working out their faith following the words and heart of Jesus. From my perspective, if I do not toe the line with the church’s stance on many issues like abortion, immigration, women’s rights, and LGBTQ+ issues, then I am out of the community.

Just another sad case of a young person who was once on fire for the Lord, but fell away. I love to teach the Bible and to belong to community, but long for the ability to do so in a way that is congruent with my convictions and intellect. 

Jared: We wanna give a special thanks to our Gen Z cohort participants for their thoughtful and honest answers, as well as our Gen Z intern Lanie and Lanie’s friends Danny, Arman, and Francesca who lent their voices to our extra segment on this episode.

Jared: Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you wanna support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just wanna give a little money, go to thebiblefornormalpeople.com/give.  

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Outro: You’ve just made it through another episode of Faith for Normal People.

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