Episode 59: Malcolm Foley – The Connection Between Racism and Greed

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Today on Faith for Normal People, we’re talking about the connection between racism and greed with Malcolm Foley. 

Pete: Malcolm is a pastor, historian, and speaker who serves as special advisor to the president for equity and campus engagement at Baylor University. He co-pastors Mosaic Waco, a multicultural church in Waco, Texas, and his new book, The Anti-Greed Gospel, is the focus of our conversation today.

Jared: Don’t forget to stay tuned at the end of the episode for quiet time during which we’ll reflect on what we learned during the conversation. Alright folks. Let’s go. 

Malcolm: So when we ask these questions about why, why do some people not have access to [00:02:00] healthy and affordable food? Why do some people not have access to housing?

Why do, why do some people not have access to these things that are necessary for human flourishing? And when and when we ask those questions, the where, where it often ends up is not just, not just in hate, but in economic, but in economic self-interest.

Jared: At the end of the day, I feel like this argument is very compelling, that greed is at the heart of a lot of American racism. So can you, let’s start high level. Can you explain that connection between greed and racism? 

Malcolm: At its root, at its root, what I’m making is first a historical argument. So it’s so, so it’s first arguing that the reason why the category of race even exists is fundamentally because of, because of greed.

Um, so when, so when the Portuguese get, essentially get to get to Africa, [00:03:00] witness chattel slavery, and decide to get involved, they don’t get involved because they’re racist. They get involved because they have markets they wanna expand. And then as they then have to justify their involvement in that system, that’s when they start to lean into this language of, of particularly whiteness and, uh, and Blackness.

The Blackness of Africans signifies the fact that they should be exploited and taken and taken advantage of. It signifies that they’re, that they’re heathens, that they’re uncivilized, all those kinds of things. Um, but all of that is just rationalization of the fact that, well, actually this is just an opportunity for us to make a whole bunch of profit.

Um, and then, and as you look through, especially American history, the whenever, whenever race kind of pops up as a justifying narrative, not, not just justifying, but also mystifying. what it’s hiding is who’s making money off of these, off of these states of affairs. 

One of the things I wanna press in the book is that, you know, this, this, when we, when we talk about race and racism, we’re not [00:04:00] just talking about, uh, kind of thinking, thinking wrongly if, because if that were the case, then if we just thought differently, then it would solve all of our issues. We’re talking about, we’re talking, we’re talking about deep, deep, deep material desires and material realities, and so, if we’re gonna resist those systems, we’ve gotta do so materially.

We’ve gotta think about what it means for our money, for our resources, for our, for our influence, all those, all those kinds of things. Um, so yeah. So that’s what I wanna press. 

Jared: Good. Well, that, I think that’s a great high level, but maybe let’s take a step back and, and maybe get to know you a little bit.

What, yeah, what’s your own story around this idea? Like, do you have personal experiences or like some ahas, revelations that led you to some of the insights here? Like what? Give us a little of your backstory here. 

Malcolm: For a number of years, I had absolutely no desire to talk about race at all. Um, I, I, from my master’s program, people would suggest that I do some stuff with race, and I’m like, I, I don’t want to be, I, I don’t just want to be [00:05:00] another Black scholar who talks about, who talks about race all the time.

And so I was, I was set up to do work on, uh, on the Greek church fathers and Calvin. It’s all stuff that I deeply, deeply love and was ready to do my dissertation on it in the PhD. Um, but then I took a class on Christianity after the Civil War, and, and we were talking about, uh, the fundamentalist, modernist controversy in the early 20th century.

But, but, but, but what kept going through my mind was, wait a minute. There are Black men and women being set on fire across the south. What’s the church doing and saying about, about that? And I, and I kept looking for books and articles and I, I just found essentially paragraphs on it, on what, on what Black churches were doing in, in re in, in, in response to it.

So that’s what, that’s what then led to me writing my dissertation. Um, but it, but it also led to deeper, to deeper questions about not just the brutality of that violence, but why, like, why did it last so long? Why did it start? Why did it continue? All those kinds. [00:06:00] And as I started to ask more of those questions, it kept coming back.

Uh, it basically kept coming back to money. And then in, uh, in early 2022, I reread, uh, Martin Luther King’s, uh, Where do We Go from Here? I read, um, Jonathan Tran’s Asian Americans, and the Spirit of Racial Capitalism, and I read what is now one of my favorite books of theology, Antonio Gonzalez’s, God’s Reign, and the End of Empires.

And when I was able to put all of that together, what it did, it, it gave me a language, it gave me a language for this stuff that, that’s what I wanted to communicate with people in this, in this, in this book. Like a number of those resources are not written, like, they’re not written for, like, they’re just not written for everybody.

Like they’re written for academics and stuff. And my thing is, this is actually an understanding of the world that I think it’s important for every Christian, for every, well, I mean really for every person, to understand that what we’re, that, what we’re up against is not just, uh, like I said, not, not, not just these ideas, but these deep material realities that actually lead to, [00:07:00] to death for a lot of people.

Um, the stakes are very, very, very, very high. Yeah. Um, and so I wanted to be able to, to articulate that 

Pete: Well, and, and to maybe just state the obvious, um, this is not a new idea. 

Malcolm: No. 

Pete: You didn’t just make this up last week and wrote a book about it, right? So, so could you help us understand more about when this started coming into the consciousness, let’s say, of Christians in, in, in the West?

Malcolm: Even when you look at the history of abolition, especially with the number of Black abolitionists, they’re very clear about what is, what’s bad about slavery. They’re very clear that it’s an issue of avarice, of greed. Um, this is it, it’s clear in David Walker’s work and, and David Walker is my favorite, my, my favorite American abolitionist.

But he’s got his book, um, An Appeal to the Colored Citizens of the World. And in it, he’s very, he’s very clear, like the primary issue with this is greed. When you look through King’s, through King’s work, especially in the last few years of his life, he’s very clear that when [00:08:00] we, that when we’re, when we’re dealing with issues of race, we’re also dealing with issues of, of economy.

Especially in the few years he repeats that, um, that there are, that there are three evil, three, three evils, racism, militarism, and, and, and materialism. And you can’t deal with one without dealing with all, with all three. Um, now, now, since that time, and, and, and, and, and, and there’s a, and there’s I think, a strain of American Christianity, that kind of refuses to reckon with greed. 

Uh, especially because it, it just, it, it lies at the root of so much that we do, but particularly in conversations about race, there’s, there’s always been, there’s always been this stream that has, that has pointed to issues of, of greed and political economy as the, as the root of these issues, as opposed to just, well, if we just, we just think differently about each other or just hang out with or, or just hang out with each other more than the problem will be solved. It’s a stream that’s been, that’s been present, that’s been present for a while, but it’s, [00:09:00] but it’s, but it’s not, uh, but it’s not as popular. Because it requires more of people.

Jared: Well, yeah, that’s what I was gonna say. I mean, sometimes it’s the, the greed is what funds our religious institutions, and so, uh, we don’t want to necessarily mess with that. But can, can you, no. Can you give us some more, uh, specific examples where we find this connection? So you, you kind of mentioned it was in reading, uh, about kind of post-Civil War and, and all of that.

But what are some connections where we find economic interests driving this, like racial oppression? So we can give people some, some practical, put their arms around it. 

Malcolm: So, uh, like I said, racial, racialized chattel slavery is the, is the, is the easy one. Um, it’s very clear that it continues because there are some people who make a whole bunch of money off of it.

Immediately after Reconstruction, so, so, so, so as I said, my specialty is the, is the lynching era. And so when people think about, when people think about lynching, they just think about kind of mobs of angry white people killing, killing, killing Black men. [00:10:00] Um, and while that’s true, that’s not the fullness of what’s going on in those, in those moments.

Um, one of the things I argue in the book is that, um, is that it’s a, it’s a phenomenon that begins because of greed, continues because of greed, and also ends because of breed. It begins because in the period after Reconstruction, a number of white folks in the south are, are, are attempting to take, to take power, to take power back. 

To, to, to essentially tell Black communities, “hey, your place is the place of exploitable thing, so we’re going to enforce, like, we’re gonna enforce you being in that, in that position through, through violence.” Um, and, and we’re going to maintain this practice by creating a number of lies about basically Black, Black men are these, are these bestial rapists.

And so this is like, like this is the kind of violence that’s necessary to keep them in line, so to speak. Um, but the reason why that practice fades historically, um, is because, is because it becomes bad for business. It becomes a, it, it, [00:11:00] it becomes an embarrassment. You get editorials coming out of places like France and Japan saying, what are these, what are these Americans, what are these Americans doing? At a time when the South is industrializing and seeking northern, uh, and seeking northern investment like this, this, this, this particular practice becomes a blight.

Just becomes a blight on the, on the South and so and so, it fades and you find other ways to like disappear people, and lean into, and lean into Jim Crow legislation, lean into other ways of suppressing these communities that aren’t as, that aren’t as visibly violent. People start, you, you, you move the violence into the carceral system.

So capital punishment increases, but you don’t, but you, but you’re not killing that person in front of crowds of thousands of people anymore. 

Um, the violence, the violence doesn’t stop. It just, it just moves. Um, because it has a purpose that it has to fulfill. So people love to talk about, uh, The Color of Law.

This book by Richard Rothstein talks about redlining, um, and the government, and the government kind of investing in the, in the, in the creation [00:12:00] of segregated communities, especially in the North. But that book doesn’t, doesn’t answer the question of why, like, why would the government do something like that?

Uh, we could just rest and say, oh, well, it’s just ’cause they were racist. But that doesn’t, that doesn’t, that, that doesn’t actually answer the question. Um, Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor has this book called Race for Profit. Um, and one of the things that she presses is that, is that, is that, is that, what’s, is that what’s actually happening there is, is a public private partnership that, that is ultimately meant to basically suck the wealth out of Black, out of Black communities.

So basically policy moves from, uh, from racist exclusion to predatory inclusion. Um, and so, and, and so, and, and so Black people are in, are, are, are invited now after, after 1968 to, to get, to get involved in the housing, um, kind of in the housing market, but often at terms that are not, uh, that are not amenable to them, [00:13:00] uh, terms that are ultimately, uh, their exploitation.

So when we ask these questions about why. Why do some people not have access to healthy and affordable food? Why do some people not have access to housing? Why do, why do some people not have access to these things that are necessary for human flourishing? And when, and, and when we ask those questions, the where, where it often ends up is not just, not just in hate, but in economic, but in economic self-interest.

Um, and so I, I, I want us to be, I want us to be aware. I want us to be aware of that. But then there’s the secondary point because those, that’s all historical stuff. Um, one of the things I wanna press in this book is that I think there’s a sense in which Jesus told us that this was the case in the Sermon on the Mount.

So what I’m, so, what I’m, so what I’m also arguing is that is, is that America’s history of race and racism is actually a proxy battle of a cosmic war, and that cosmic war is between God and mammon. As Jesus says in, in Matthew 6:24, you can’t serve two masters, you’ll, you’ll either love [00:14:00] one and hate the other or be loyal to one and despise the other.

You cannot serve both God and mammon, which is the Aramaic word for riches. I’m deeply convinced that one of the most significant, I mean, what is, for the, for the Christian, the most, the most significant battle for our souls is a battle between God and money for control. Um, and, and I just, and I think that most of us have not been prepared to be found on the right side of that battle.

Pete: That’s a profound point. I mean, that, that sort of touches every aspect of our lives and. Um, and I just, I mean, it’s, again, it’s such a simple concept, race and greed, but then you, it is, it’s, and it seems obvious the more you talk about it, but it’s got such deep, it’s got deep and wide, tentacles reach very, very far, you know, um, slightly off [00:15:00] topic, I was, I’m reading Howard Zinn’s, uh, People’s History of America.

And quote after quote of, in Congress during the Civil War says, “we can’t let these slaves go. Oh, are you kidding me? What are we gonna do with our cash? What are we gonna do? How, how are we gonna stay rich?” You know? And it’s amazing to see this, it’s like, it’s explicit in our history.

And, and we wonder why there is economic disparity even today. I mean, it’s mm-hmm. It’s, it’s baked into the system like DNA and there’s a reason why things are the way they are. 

Jared: Yeah. Yeah. And, and also it seems like some of the legacy of that is when you are historically disadvantaged. Then it becomes easier again, not out of hate or necessarily race as a particular, but just you are exploitable as a people.

You can be taken advantage of because you may be desperate to get into a house, or these things. And so it sort of snowballs past race into these other [00:16:00] things. And then like you said, you because you’re Black, it’s identifiable. And it’s culturally acceptable to exploit and take advantage, and so we’re going to target you for that exploitation.

Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Yep. It that is, and that’s, and that’s exactly the way that works. So, so, so when I, like, when I see people focusing on, for example, hate and ignorance as the evils that flow out of race and racism, I’m like, like the hate and ignorance is like, it’s there, right? But, but it, but it comes, but it comes downstream.

When you have, when you have years of treating somebody like an exploitable thing, like, yeah, you’re not gonna like them ’cause you’re gonna ’cause, ’cause you spend all this, you spend all this energy essentially creating this image of them not as a human being, but as something less than a human being. Because that’s what, because that’s what’s necessary for you to continue to take advantage of them in the ways that, in the ways that are, that are, that, that seem to be beneficial to you. In the sense that you end up making a whole bunch of money. 

Jared: Well, you, you, you brought in Jesus. Can we talk a little bit more about-

Malcolm: I did. 

Jared: Can we, can we talk [00:17:00] about the church a little bit? Because 

Malcolm: Yeah. I’m a big fan. 

Pete: The, the church, which is not to be confused with Jesus. 

Jared: Not to be confused. Okay, right. How has the church historically dealt with this? Like in what ways have, has the church contributed or, or fought against this? Like what are, how do we implicate ourselves in this? 

Malcolm: Yeah. Um, you know, the, the exam, the most positive examples that I give in the book, uh, actually come out of, uh, come out of the early, come out of the early church, um, and also-

Jared: And it’s just all downhill from there?

Malcolm: Yeah. After Constantine, man, and then, and then we get in bed with empire, like everything’s out, everything’s out the window. Um, but, but also, um, but also the Black church in this country.

Just because, like, a position, being in a position of being persecuted, uh, sets your priorities in I think really, and I think really important ways. One of the things I tell my, one of the things I tell my church [00:18:00] is that, uh, one of the, one of the easiest ways to dilute Christian witness is to give people money, power, and cultural influence, because it’s very easy.

It’s just so, it’s just so easy to get comfortable. It’s so easy to get comfortable and then find ways to then justify why you need to remain in power once you, once you have it. Or, or, or, or find ways to justify why, why I should continue to have millions and millions of dollars, ’cause I haven’t, I don’t wanna lose it.

A lot of American Christianity has been trying to find ways to prove Jesus wrong when he says, you can’t serve both God and mammon. They’re like, like, “actually, actually, Jesus, you’re just not as creative as we are. We can, we can, we, we, we can figure this out.” And, and Jesus is like, no, no, no. Like it’s not, it’s not possible.

But one of the things that has been most encouraging to me from folks like Basil of Caesarea, uh, and John Chrysostom is that there is this, there’s this, there’s this just fundamental assumption that at the root of the Christian ethic is an, is [00:19:00] an, is an openhandedness toward the needy. And like, that’s like, that’s fundamental to what it, to actually, what it means to be a Christian.

And that flows out of, and really that flows out of a Christology. So this is, this is an argument that I’m making, uh, in chapter five, that if we understand Christ to be one who, though he was in the form of God, didn’t see equality with God as a thing to be selfishly held onto, but instead took on the form of a servant, emptied him, emptied himself. That’s not just a picture of humility, it’s also a picture of generosity. Like it’s, it’s a picture of Christ as one who saw everything that he had, not, not as meant to be hoarded for himself, but to share with humanity, which is insane. We were preaching through the book of Revelation over the course of the past six months.

We started, like the week before the election. Excellent timing. Great timing. It’s been some of my favorite preaching of all time because there are, there, there, there, there’s an image kind of over and over again throughout the book of Revelation of the end being the Saints [00:20:00] ruling alongside Christ.

And, and it’s, and it, and, and it’s a picture to the point of like, so in, in Revelation 3:21, Jesus says “to the one who overcomes, I will give to them the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat with my father on his throne.” Because like the image of the saints ruling alongside Christ, people could think that it’s just, well, we get like little thrones around Him and He gets the big one and Jesus is saying, no, no, no, like you sit with with me on my, on my chair because I took on flesh to share everything that I have with you.

Even His, even His, even His very throne. If that is the picture of the, if that’s the picture of the Christ that we serve, one who hoards nothing for Himself, but instead seeks to share all that He has with us, that’s, that’s the model that, that is essentially a model for the way that we ought to think about any, any power or resources that the Lord sees fit to give us.

It’s not meant for, it’s not meant for me just to amass for myself. It’s meant for me, it’s meant for me to share with all those who might, with all [00:21:00] those who might, who might need it. 

Um, this is the example that we’re given in the in, in the, in the church in Acts. Immediately after the descension of the, of the Holy Spirit, they’re marked by four things.

They’re marked by the, their, their devotion to the apostles’ teaching, prayer, the breaking of bread and koinonia, the fellowship. And that, and that word fellowship or sharing, well, the question’s like, well, what are they sharing? They’re sharing their material, their material goods. 

They’re shared, they’re sharing to make sure that, to make sure that the people in their midst don’t have any need.

And they were told in Acts 4 that God’s grace was so powerfully at work in their midst that there were no needy people in their midst. Because, not because they kicked the needy out, but because they, but because when they saw people in need that came into this community, they’re like, well, what? Well, the only reason the Lord has given us stuff is in order to share it.

So let’s meet these needs. Um, one of the most significant witnesses of the church is supposed to be its economic witness. 

Pete: Yeah, we forget that pretty easily. ’cause we’re an economic power, a lot of us, so, yeah. Can, can I just follow up with something? [00:22:00] Because you, you mentioned a couple of figures from the early church and earlier also had an interest in, in, in Calvin. 

Malcolm: I did. I still do. 

Pete: Um, do you find any themes similar in, in, in the reformed tradition that are similar to a Basil and, and others that you mentioned? 

Malcolm: Well, I mean, a lot of this is even present in, like, it’s present in, in Calvin’s, in Calvin’s commentaries. Uh, like, I mean, when he.

When he, when he reflects on, uh, you know, whether it’s, whether it’s 2 Corinthians 8 when, when, um, it’s the, you know, the, the relationship between the, the Corinthians and the uh, uh, and the Macedonians and all, like, all these things about, especially, especially care for the, especially care for the, care for the poor.

I mean, this was something that, I mean, when he formed the diaconate in Geneva, there were extensive ministries to care for the refugees in, in Geneva. ’cause it was largely a refugee community. Um, and, and, and, and kind of care, care for the poor was one of, I, I mean, was one of [00:23:00] his most explicit pastoral uh, pastoral priorities.

Um, and then, and, and I think about, I mean, some of my favorite, one of my favorite reformed figures, I mean it’s Calvin, Bavinck, Allan Boesak, others who are very, were very clear that fundamental to the Christian ethic is a, is a care and open handedness with the needy. There are some reform sources. Some, some bright spots in the, in the reform tradition on these, on some on, on some of these points. 

Pete: Yeah. Maybe more than just a, like a juridical kind of tradition. There are maybe hearts in there too, someplace. 

Malcolm: Oh yeah. So sometimes you gotta dig, sometimes you gotta dig a little bit. But it’s, is there, yeah. 

Jared: Is this, when you were talking earlier about this generosity, can you say more about that and is that what you mean by economic solidarity? I feel like that’s a, that’s a kind of a, a $10 term that people hear. But it, it feels abstract. So the way you’re talking about it feels [00:24:00] very practical. So can you say more about that? 

Malcolm: Yes. One of the things I wanna argue, and this happens in chapter, in chapter five, I people, when people think about the opposite of greed, they generally think about generosity.

But I wanna complicate that because it, it, it, it can also be easy for generosity to turn into paternalism. 

Where I, where I, because I have so much and you have so little, I’m clearly superior. So let me, so let me descend to your level for a moment. 

Jared: Well, it’s a derivative control too, right? Let me amass it first. 

Malcolm: Exactly. 

Jared: Then I’ll give, give some to you so that I can still feel secure in my muchness and be generous. 

Malcolm: Exactly. And, and, and, and, and, and my giving to you might actually even glean significant benefit for me.

Whether, whether it’s control over your organization, or what, or, or, or whatever. 

Jared:  Or tax break.

Malcolm: Um, tax, tax, tax benefits, all those, all those things. And that essentially ends up, ends up as paternalism. But that is not the [00:25:00] way that, to go back to the Christological point, that’s not the way that Christ gave to us.

He actively, He actively became one of us, walked alongside, walked alongside us. That’s the picture of solidarity that I’m trying to draw is one where, one where it brings the giver and receiver together, in understanding that like, I, I may have things that you need, but there are also things that you have that I need.

So this is, so this is, so this is an, this is an exchange. Equality. Equality is not just a, like, it’s not just a static position. It’s a, it’s a relationship of exchange. It’s a relationship of recognizing that, that, that, that, that in order to build true just and equitable community, it requires us to recognize that everybody who I’m, who I’m connected with also has things that I need in order for me to grow in Christ.

Malcolm: Um, and so and so and so it’s not, so it’s not just building kind of habits of, habits of generosity. That is, habits of giving. But it’s also building habits of receiving. So when people ask like, [00:26:00] what are two, uh, like, I mean, what are some applications that I want to come out of the, come out of the book?

The two things that first come to mind are, um, first we have to build communities that are very comfortable with asking for help, which is something that’s, which is something that’s difficult in a political economy that teaches you- it’s like self-sufficiency is what you fight for. 

Tooth and nail.

Like you, you want to be able to make it for yourself because the only way that you do make it is by yourself. And if you, if you succeed, it’s ’cause you work really hard. If you fail, it’s ’cause you messed something up. So figure it out. But the picture of, I think the people who are called together by the gospel is that we are not a people who are fundamentally producers or consumers, we’re people who are fundamentally sharers.

But in order for us to share, we have to understand that there are things that, there are things that we need. Um, and other people might have those things. Um, and so, um, and so it’s that we’ve gotta build, we’ve gotta build communities that are willing to ask for help and communities that are willing to think about creative [00:27:00] ways to share.

Um, because those, because in a, especially in a world where, where we’re encouraged, like I said, to hoard, to hoard for ourselves and to amass for ourselves. Um, that’s also a stressful, like, that’s also a stressful way to live. ’cause then you’ve gotta spend all your time protecting what you have and all, and all that kind of stuff. 

Um, when it is, it is much more freeing, um, to see what the Lord has given you as meant to be, as meant to be shared, rather than just something that you’ve gotta protect with all of your, all of your heart and mind and soul. 

Pete: So, Malcolm, help me, um, a thought popped into my head as you were talking.

And, uh, reparations. So how, how can you map that onto this issue of economic solidarity? 

Malcolm: Sure. 

Pete: Like, is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Is it, is it sort of a paternalistic handout or is it something that’s, that’s, uh, more just? 

Malcolm: Well, the best, the best, best way to think about, uh, reparations is that, uh, you know, if someone has stolen something, [00:28:00] uh, the right thing to do is to return what was stolen.

Uh, and when you, and when you look at, especially the history, which as I continue to argue, it’s a history of economic exploitation. That is, it’s a history of theft. There are a number of ways to make the reparations argument. And, and, and one is that kind of the government has done a lot of this theft and so there’s a, like, there’s a massive debt that the government owes. 

I don’t think, uh, I just personally don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t think, don’t think this government will, will, will ever have the moral imagination or fortitude to actually actually pay on that debt. Um, we also have church communities with significant endowments that were built, that were built on the backs, that were built on the backs of exploitative, of exploitative labor. 

We, especially those who, uh, claim to follow Christ, have responsibility to think about those resources in such a way that are like, well, how, what is, what is just redistribution? What does just redistribution look like? 

Um, [00:29:00] I tell my church often that we are.

I want us to think about ourselves, if we think about ourselves financially, if there’s a, if there’s a paradigm through which we, through which we think about our church, it ought to be like we are a fundamentally redistributive body. Anything that you, anything that you give, anything that you give to the church, like you are giving to the people basically.

Um, and we want you to be able to see, we want you to be able to see that. We want you to be able to see the ways that you’re not only investing in the needy, in your midst, but also in the needy in, in this, in this particular community. Um, so yeah, so, so, so when, that’s, when that’s a part of your, when that’s a part of your history, I think we have a, I think we have a responsibility to think about what is, what does just redistribution look like.

Jared: One of the things I wanna talk about, ’cause we’re, we’re talking about a lot of, um, important ideas and thoughts. Um, but I keep thinking, uh, you mentioned Ida, Ida B. Wells, and this idea of, of truth telling as an important strategy [00:30:00] here. And I, as I’ve thought about that, it just feels like, like learning all this stuff, like we’ve learned a tremendous amount from you in the past half hour.

And it’s sort of like, but then I go to, everybody thinks they’re truth telling. Like, that’s, we have an entire world online where everyone’s just truth telling and truth, you know? And how do you balance, then, this prophetic call to speak truth to power, um, powerful people and powerful systems with like the self critique and how do, how are we wise in our truth telling that actually brings about the changes that we hope to see?

Malcolm: It’s, it’s why the interventions that I wanna offer are threefold. So in the, so in the, in the first few chapters, I lay out what I, what I call the, the demonic cycle of self-interest, which is exploitation, violence, and lies that we all, that we want to dominate and exploit each other because we want money and we want power, but that requires us to put people in positions that they don’t wanna be in.

Um, and so we use violence to keep them in that [00:31:00] position. And then because we don’t, generally don’t wake up in the morning thinking, oh, I’m really excited to dominate, exploit, and kill my neighbor. We create narratives in order to tell ourselves that that’s not what we’re doing to each other. So we, so we lie to ourselves.

So we’ve got exploitation, violence, lies, exploitation, violence lies. And so the second half of the book is the, is the three interventions that fight the three elements of that cycle. So we’ve got deep economic communities of deep economic solidarity. Creative anti-violence, and prophetic truth telling. And, and, and I don’t, I don’t want, I don’t want us to be able to break any one of those three away from the other two.

So, truth telling has, truth telling has more, it, it, it, it has more weight. When you are already embedded in a community that is deeply committed to the love of, like, that’s deeply committed to the love of neighbor, of neighbor in A=antiviolence, like a community that’s deeply committed to, you know, when we see people who are suffering from [00:32:00] hunger or lack of housing or things like that, like they, these, these are people who reach out, who, who, like, there’s, there’s not an argument. Like, just reach out and figure out how do we, how do we love, how do we love these folks?

Similarly, a community that is deeply, that’s deeply discomforted by, by, by, by inequality. And, and one and one where, and one where deep economic solidarity plays, plays, it plays, it plays itself out in, in the, in a way that looks similar to the, to the, to the kind of impulses of the early church where when people present needs to the community, they’re like, the first thing is, okay, how do we come together?

You know, how do we come, how do we come together along, alongside this person or this family? Um, that, that, that truth telling is never kind of a naked, like it’s never just kind of a naked thing. It’s something that, it’s something that takes place within, within these, within these other community rhythms.

Um, so I think it’s important. I think [00:33:00] it’s important to recognize it as a, as a piece of a threefold cord. And the thing about each of those elements of the threefold chord, like I, I want, I wanna press this in the book, is that like, these are not extra, these are not extra Christian things.

These are just basic Christian things. People aren’t told that these are basic Christian things, but for me, I’m like, this is like, this is basically just straight out of the Sermon on the Mount. It’s just articulated in a way that you may not that, that, that, that some folks may not have heard it said like this before.

Or said it with, said with the expectation, Hey, like, actually you ought to live in this way. 

This, this isn’t just like a hypothetical. Like maybe if you get around to it. No, no, no. Like this is actually what the path of true joy, peace, and love is. 

Jared: Have you, have you in your community figured out a way, ’cause when I, one of the things I’m thinking about is the obstacle in this community, there’s a little bit of a dialectic, right? Where you need, you need the asking for help. But you also need the sharing and it’s a little chicken-and-the-egg, and it seems very [00:34:00] scary in a community to be the one who is asking for help first when you’re not sure if people are gonna want to share it.

It seems like that’s how we, how we meet each other’s needs are, we have to be willing to redistribute labor and other things like that so that my excess goes to your lack and vice versa. But if you’re not sure if other people are going to be into sharing, it’s really vulnerable. So how do you, how have you seen that play out in like very practical local communities?

Malcolm: Yeah. Well, and so one of the things, so one element is, uh, as with any of these, as with any of these messages, this is something that I know that the people at my church need to hear over and over and over again. 

Because some people are gonna get it the first time and then there are gonna be others where it’s gonna take, it’s gonna take about five or six times before it actually, before it actually takes root.

But I also want, like, I also want folks, I also want them to be aware of the folks in their midst who are doing this, who are doing [00:35:00] this well. Um, because ’cause it’s happening, like it’s happening. Um, but, but, but if people don’t, but if people don’t know, if people don’t know that it’s happening, they can’t be encouraged, they can’t be encouraged by it. 

And so one of the, one of the great things about preaching through the Sermon on the Mount, uh, and I told, I told the congregation this when I introduced the sermon series. I was like, I, I’m sure most of you are used to hearing sermons. If you hear sermons about the Sermon on Mount, they also include a whole bunch of qualification saying like, “Jesus didn’t really mean this. Like what he really meant is this.” 

And I’m like, I’m not doing any of that. I’m just, I, I want us to, I want us to encounter these words and then like, try it. Just try, like, doing the things that Jesus told to do. It’s like when he says, like-

Jared: That’s crazy talk everyone. That’s crazy talk. 

Malcolm: Right? I just like, just try it.

Just try it. Just try it. See what, see what, see what happens. 

See what happens when, when you hear Jesus say, give to everyone who asks of you. And like, just like, try it for a week. Somebody ask, you just, just give it.

Pete: But I’m gonna have less stuff. Don’t you [00:36:00] understand that I’m gonna have less stuff if I do that, and then what? Then what will I do? 

Malcolm: To which, to which Jesus, to which Jesus responds and says, you, you spend all this time worrying about what you’re gonna eat and what you’re gonna wear and all this stuff. Don’t you know that your Father cares about you? Mm-hmm. Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things that is all that you need will be added to you.

I think that we read that text and we just don’t believe Jesus when he says it. 

That’s, that’s nice. That sounds, that’s, that sounds nice. That’s great. But like, but I, I really gotta, I, I like, there’s stuff that I’ve really gotta shore up to make sure that I’m fine. 

Pete: I’ll do that eventually, but not quite yet. 

Jared: I need to, I gotta build that 401k up first. Gosh. 

Pete: I don’t like this episode. It’s making me think too hard about my money. I don’t have many money anyway, but, um, yeah. 

Malcolm: This is this, but that’s, but that’s exactly the reaction that I want.

Everybody who reads this book, like, I want everybody who reads the book to be deeply implicated by it.[00:37:00] 

Pete: We’re approaching the end of our time here, Malcolm, but um, I want to ask you what might give you hope in this moment? Or do you have any hope in this moment? And, and maybe, what, what can be done to affect change? 

Because it’s pretty, we’re pretty sick, I think, at this point in our country. That’s my opinion.

So, so, uh, what, what are your thoughts about that? 

Malcolm: And I have an incredible, I have an incredible amount of hope, um, and it is an unassailable, uh, kind of, kind of hope. And that’s because, uh, so, so it would be very easy for me, I think, to place my hope in particular communities kind of doing these things.

But the thing about that is that, uh, those communities can fail. And if those, and, and if those communities do, uh, the risk is that my hope goes, [00:38:00] my hope goes with them. 

This is, this happened in, uh, so, um, so Jonathan Tran’s book, uh, Asian Americans and the Spirit of Racial Capitalism, the second half of the book is specifically focused on a, on a particular church that’s living, that was living in a number of the ways that both, that both he and I kind of, that both he and I kind of frame.

But in the last few years that church has, uh, in many ways fallen apart. 

And so he’s like, he’s been reckoning with like, what that, what that means. 

Um, and for, and for me, as I think of, like, I, I will be encouraged by communities kind of doing, doing these things, but my hope, my hope is ultimately rooted in the fact that Jesus Christ died and got up from the dead. And then, and because of, and, and that He told us to live in these kinds of ways and that He also promised to give us the resources to be able to live in these kinds of ways. Um, and so like that, and like there’s nothing, I cannot think of anything that will make me believe that less.

And so [00:39:00] even when I come up against the obstacles that I will necessarily come up against, because that’s the other thing that I frame here is that we’re not struggling against, against, against flesh and blood. We’re up against powers and principalities. So the expectation is that there’s gonna be resistance.

Like the expectation is that it’s gonna be hard to kind of pry people’s fingers from their, from their, from their goods. The expectation is that, is that it’s gonna be hard to pry the cause of mammon out of the hearts and minds of the people of God. But, uh, that’s what I gotta do. And my hope is in the fact that, that, that it is not only work that Christ has begun, but it’s work that He’s promised to finish.

Um, and so even if, you know, even if I, even if I die in the, even if I die in the process, it’s not, it’s not up to me. It’s not, it’s not up to me to complete. But I’ve, but, but, but I’ve been able to see, um, you know, but I’ve been able to see these, these, these wonder, these wonderful glimpses of what this, of what this can look like when it’s, when it, when the people of God [00:40:00] really commit to it.

And that’s, and that, and that continues to be, that continues to be encouraging to me. 

Jared: Well, thank you so much for this education. I think it was a fantastic conversation. So thanks so much and thanks for the hope at the end. I think that was a great benediction for us as we, as we close. So thank you so much.

Malcolm: Thank y’all so much for having me. 

AND NOW FOR QUIET TIME WITH PETE AND JARED 

Pete: This is one of these episodes. Jared, I wish we could have just done two hours. 

Jared: Oh, I know. We could have talked for so, I mean, but part of it is, I feel like what we need is an intermission. This was a great one for an intermission where it’s like, hold on, let me process everything that you’re saying.

I need a couple of minutes. I’m gonna have some, I don’t have questions, I don’t have questions right now, but I’m gonna, I will, I’ll have a lot of questions. Uh, yeah, so I mean, maybe what, why don’t we, why don’t we use this our, for this quiet time? Why don’t we use this framework that he hopefully, uh, [00:41:00] described around the cycle of, of exploitation, violence, and lies. 

Because I think within that, a, a lot of concepts come out, right. You know, this idea of exploitation is, I, I, I would just say from the beginning, for me personally, this cycle made sense. Like I found ways of, like, trying to break it down into simple. It, it’s, it’s easy to dismiss these things when we think of extreme examples like exploitation. 

It’s like, well, I’m personally not, you know, exploiting Black people in this way. And so I’m not, and, and violence is such a, it’s, you know, is such a big word. It’s like, well, I’m not doing violence, but I see these, like, immediately when we start talking, I think of little things.

Where it’s like. Oh, if I can get a better deal on this thing. And, but it requires me to take advantage and not be totally honest. I’m not lying, but I’m not giving you all the facts either. Because then that [00:42:00] gives me this upper hand. That is doing violence. Because not treating someone as an equal, it’s not treating them the way you wanna be treated.

It’s not as, as treating someone as an in, as an in, in themselves. And then I don’t wanna see myself as a violent person or someone who takes advantage of people. So I lie to myself, and then the more I do that, the easier it gets to exploit the next time.

And I, I don’t know, did, did you resonate with that? 

Pete: Oh yeah. I mean, the lies we tell ourselves, and then the response to that is that prophetic calling out. Which is why I, I think we invest a lot in our lives. It’s a way for us to, I say us, not them. It’s a way for us to maintain a, uh, a sense of self we can live with.

We can tolerate and we don’t like people poking at that, you know? Yeah. And. And, um, you know, the exploitation, um, of, uh, the, the economic solidarity. So, which is the response to the exploitation.

Jared: [00:43:00] It’s like the antidote to exploitation. 

Pete: That’s, that’s, that’s systemic, right?

So it’s, it’s the answer to that. I, I like what he said. The answer to that is not like paternalistic charity. You know, that’s not the answer. That’s a Band-AID at best. 

Now people who don’t have much would probably like to have something so they can buy food. Right. So I mean that, I understand that, but that’s, that’s not the answer.

That’s still, that’s, that’s almost a way of ensuring that system and that cycle. 

Jared: Right. In some ways it’s that release valve that actually perpetuates the system.

Pete: Right. It allows it to keep going without blowing up. Um, but the, the, the, the issue of, of economic, um, solidarity is one that is, is deeply threatening because it, it hits us in our pocketbook. 

Jared: Yeah. I, I mean, the idea of the church as a redistributive body was like, and, you know-

Pete: Want it all.

Jared: I know. It is tough. I know. And then, [00:44:00] there’s these implications of that, right? I, I think I’m so programmed as an American to be like anti-communist. It’s like my initial thought of like, redistributed, well, hold on. And it’s like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Why? Why is that my reaction?  Like, let’s, ’cause again, in theory, I’m all for that. But then I think, uh, Malcolm had just such a good way of, of making it so practical that I couldn’t help but think of my own situation.

And then that, he did his own little prophetic truth telling without knowing it, I think. For both of us. 

Pete: I mean, I, I, I didn’t. I didn’t exactly squirm at times. But I did think I do this all the time, or I’m, I’m not even conscious of this and I’m, I’m so worried about, you know, retirement, for example.

Jared: Well, can we, can we, let’s just because we’re gonna get into this. Let’s just say as a moment of vulnerability, I think I can speak from you. We both have issues with fear around money. So then it’s like, that’s, I think, an important piece of context for both of our “oh crap” moments. Of, like, ahhhhh. But it’s more just [00:45:00] for my own-

Pete: But I’ve been working so hard to not have that fear. 

Jared: Yeah. 

Pete: By getting more. Which is never enough. Well, and, and I think what, and just for the record, we’re not rich. Okay. 

Jared: Yeah, what’s hard for me is the, for me, I see it as, you know, our family didn’t have a lot of money growing up. So there’s this little kid in me. It’s like the little kid in me that I’m trying to protect. Which doesn’t feel exploitative. It feels like I’m doing the right thing for me. To protect that little boy who felt like maybe we did, weren’t gonna have enough.

And it’s like, oh, but in that kind of protection, you may be doing harm to other people. 

Pete: And now you’re protecting your family. And the family, you don’t even have yet. Down the road, generations and, yeah. And that’s, I think we’re, we’ve been programmed to think that way.

And that’s always been the way of the wealthy throughout history. You know, even the pharaohs would be buried with herself. Right. 

Jared: But that’s why I asked about that, [00:46:00] you know, the chicken-or-the-egg, because the challenge is when you’re in a system that needs you to do that, right? We don’t live in a, we don’t live in a community-based system now, so you are taking a risk.

Like if you are being generous and not saving up for retirement, let’s say. Like that’s a risky proposition. And I think, not to speak for Malcolm, but I think what he would say is yes, following Jesus is a risky proposition. Right? And that’s when I’m like, oh, that makes me uncomfortable.

Pete: And you’re right. Well, and that, that leads to a certain conclusion, which I don’t mind saying, um, rather brashly, but you can easily make the argument that the American economic system, and therefore the economic, the, the American experiment, is deeply counter to the, the impulse of the Christian faith.

I mean, that’s, that’s the thing. And you can, you can [00:47:00] make it as Christian as you want to. You can say we’re a Christian nation because, you know, pilgrims came over and killed a lot of people and took their land, you know, so this is a Christian nation and, you know, we’re, we’re the new, uh, Canaan and, and, and, you know.

And God favors us and all this kind of crap, you know, um, that’s, that’s the, that’s the lie we tell ourselves nationally. Um, but, you know, you, you try to bring this up even in an exploratory sense with people and people react viscerally. And you get called all sorts of names and, and I think that’s why that kind of, like, the debate is not going to do it.

It’s not a matter of like, you don’t understand something. It’s a matter of you have a deep emotional investment in something that, that makes meaning for your existence. That’s the problem. And when I’m gonna sound preachy here, I don’t mean to, but if that meaning for your existence is something material, it’s really not Christian.[00:48:00] 

It’s just not, you know. Now I’m working on that myself. You know, I’m not, I’m not preaching to anybody. I’m just, I’m working on that myself. But it’s like, and, and it’s, it’s just seems so, it’s right there in front of us. And it’s not that we’re too dumb to see it. No, it’s, I remember, I remember, uh, Clair Davis, one of our church history professors, he would say that, you know, people say, well, you know, the reason we mistreat people we don’t really know enough, right?

 And he said, well, that’s nonsense. We know all sorts of things, but we still do it. Right? Like, why do we do this? And, Malcolm was saying something very, very similar, right?

Why? Why do we do this? Because we have, there’s something we don’t wanna lose. What is it? 

Jared: And, and not only that, but I, I appreciate what you’re saying, which makes it even harder, which is, it is, it reminds me of what Malcolm said about Matthew 6. Like, you can’t serve God and mammon. In some ways it is the driving force and the map we follow, like it, it is the water we swim in.

And [00:49:00] so it’s like, oh, that it cuts so deep, not just in terms of, uh, our material reality, but it does kind of frame how we think of ourselves and we’re stuck, stuck in, it’s our identity 

Pete: We’re stuck in it. We can’t get out of it. It’s, it is the mark of the beast in a sense. You know, you can’t buy yourself.

And you know, debates in Congress over climate change, it goes down to, yeah. But economically it’s gonna hurt the working people and the thing is it might. And that’s, that’s the conundrum we’re in. We’ve built this system. Yeah. That can’t be just, yeah, by its very definition. 

Jared: And to dismantle it will cause harm too.

Pete: Right. Exactly. Yeah. So what do you do? Well, well, you try to get what’s yours.

Jared: Yeah, exactly. 

Pete: And just forget about everybody else. Exactly what the politicians are doing, man. 

Jared: So that’s great. We ended the episode, ah, with Malcolm and giving us this great, uh, benediction of hope and we’ve just dashed it in the Quiet Time and ended on a low note.

Pete: So the, the, the end to this is the, now go back and listen to the end.

Jared: We should splice this in before [00:50:00] we get to that last part. 

Pete: Yeah, I think Malcolm has the hope because he’s intimately connected with this whole concept.

Jared: It feels so daunting.

Pete: Yeah, it feels overwhelming. 

Jared: Alright, thanks everybody. 

Pete:  Yeah. Have a good day. 

Jared: Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you wanna support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just want to give a little money, go to thebiblefornormalpeople.com/give. 

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Outro: You’ve just made it through another episode of Faith for Normal People. Don’t forget you can catch our other show, The Bible for Normal People, in the same feed wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for Normal People team: Brittany Hodge, Joel Limbauan, Melissa Yandow, Tessa Stultz, Danny Wong, Lauren O’Connell, and Naiomi Gonzalez.