Episode 314: Shayna Sheinfeld - The Complicated World of Second Temple Judaism
In this week’s episode of The Bible for Normal People, Pete Enns and Anna Sieges Beal sit down with Shayna Sheinfeld to talk about the Second Temple period, spanning from 586 BCE to 70 CE. Shayna presents texts from that time that illuminate events glossed over by most Bibles, and explores the often-overlooked roles played by women wielding power in those communities.
Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/92i5Pc9CRI4
Mentioned in This Episode
Class: “Back to the Beginning: How to Ask Better Questions of Genesis” with Pete Enns
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Pete: You're listening to The Bible for Normal People, the only God-ordained podcast on the internet. I’m Pete Enns.
Ep 313 Shayna Sheinfeld v1
Pete: You are listening to The Bible for Normal People, the only God-ordained podcast on the internet, I'm Pete Enns.
Jared: And I’m Jared Byas. Did you ever wonder why God created the Garden of Eden with temptation built right into it or ask why an all powerful God didn't just stop the serpent from deceiving Adam and Eve, or ask why God would tell Abraham to murder his son? Well, Pete has just the class for you. It's called “Back to the Beginning: How to Ask Better Questions of Genesis.”
Pete: Yeah. I wanted to teach this class to think about all those big “why” questions people ask when they read Genesis, and maybe some helpful new ways to think about them. Maybe seeing what the writers were actually doing instead of just trying to defend our view of God.
Jared: That sounds amazing. In this class, Pete will walk us through why Genesis was written, what's really going on in those strange early stories, and how the later parts of Genesis help us ask better questions.
If you've ever wondered what Genesis is actually trying to do or why it matters today, this is a great place to start. The class is happening live on Wednesday, November 19th from 8:00 to 9:30 PM Eastern Time, followed by an exclusive Society of Normal People Q-&-A. Learn more and sign up at thebiblefornormalpeople.com/genesisclass.
Pete: Hey everybody. It's me here, Pete, without Jared, but I am here with other adult supervision that is Anna Sieges Beal, our very own nerd-in-residence. And Anna, how are you doing?
Anna: I'm doing great. I'm happy to be here.
Pete: I'm glad you're here. We always have so much fun with these interviews and we did have fun today, didn't we?
Anna: We definitely had fun. We did.
Pete: And today's episode, we're talking about misunderstood women in the second temple period. What's that? Well we explain that too, but we talk about. Herod and his kids who have the same name and wives that we can't keep separate because the family trees are crazy. But it's this backstory to everything and our guest is Shayna Seinfeld.
Anna: Shayna is a professor of religion at Augsburg University where she teaches on sacred texts from Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Her research currently focuses on the role of women in the Herodian courts during the first centuries BCE and CE and the historical interpretation of their stories.
Pete: Yes, and we just had a fascinating discussion. I learned a lot s let's get into it, shall we?
Shayna: Jews and Judaism at the time of Jesus before and after as well, was complicated and complex and messy. And the depictions that we have of the Jews in the Bible, um, in the New Testament is not, it's not an accurate depiction.
Again, we have to ask that question. Whose interest does it serve for the, for Jews to be depicted in this way?
Pete: Shayna, welcome to The Bible for Normal People podcast.
Shayna: Uh, thank you. It's great to be here.
Pete: Yeah, we're very excited to talk with you about, uh, Second Temple Judaism and some other things, whatever that is. But why don't you first tell us how, um. I got into this, like, what's your story? Like, who does this and why?
Shayna: Yeah. It's such a good question. So my story goes back to, um, back to my nana actually. So my, my dad's mom. So my parents are, um, pretty secular. I was raised pretty secular, but my dad's mom was very religious, religious Christian. My mom's side's Jewish, my dad's side's Christian, and my, um, my nana used to tell my sisters and I stories of the second coming of Christ.
Um, and so my sisters would just be like, whatever, Nana, and they'd go to bed and, um, I would be up all night worried about this, of how I would never, ever, uh, be good enough or anything like that to kind of survive such an event.
Um, and um, and because of that, I was very interested at, even at a young age in religion. I used to go to church. I grew up in North Idaho. I used to, um, go to church with different friends. Again, my family was very secular and, um, and never really found a place for me to belong. And by the time, you know, when I was in high school, I did a kind of a standard move of, like, hating all things religion, anything like that.
And then when I went away to college, I had to take a couple religion classes as part of my requirement. And, um, and I was really curious about the, about these, this apocalypse that my nana would talk about. And I was really curious about the intersection of how this apocalyptic idea must have come from Judaism and I didn't know, I didn't understand how, how the whole Jesus thing happened in relation to Judaism.
Um, and so I took my first, uh, one of my first classes was a New Testament class. I was very nervous actually about taking that class. I thought it was gonna be evangelical. I had no idea what the academic study of the Bible was like. And, um, and I went into class and it was, it just blew my mind.
Um, it was, you know, a New Testament class just blew my mind and, and I was hooked, right? I left with more questions than, uh, I got answered. Um, but I wanted to answer those two, and so I just kept going.
Pete: Well, I think it's, it's, what's interesting about that story to me, among other things, is just the, that brings together Hebrew Bible and New Testament, this period in between.
So, so why don't, why don't we talk about that? Why don't you tell us your, your area of work is Second Temple Judaism. You have, you have specific interests in that, but let's, let's just start with the basics to get everyone on board. What is the Second Temple period? When is the second temple period? And who cares?
Who cares about this stupid thing? That's not even in our Bible. Yeah, unless you're Catholic. And Episcopalian. Or Orthodox, then it's there, but yeah, well, Protestants, it's not.
Shayna: The first thing I would say is it's in everybody's Bible. When, when were, when were the texts of the Hebrew Bible written? When were the texts of the New Testament written, like who, who produced those? Right. That's all. It's all Second Temple. And just varying degrees. Right. So, um, so, you know, who cares? Everybody should care, um, in my opinion.
Anyway, the, so the Second Temple period, so the, the ancient Israelites had, um, had their first temple. It was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BC.
And they were shipped off and then, uh, and then they were, Babylonians are conquered by the Persians. And, um, a lot of these, um, ancient Israelites who will now call Jews were, um, sent back to Israel. They said, you can go home. And once they were home, they said, we want to rebuild the temple to our God.
And so that temple that they built at that time is what is what we call the second temple, right? First one was destroyed, now they're building the second one. Um, and that stood, um, with, with, uh, well we can get into that one. We talk about Herod a little bit. That stood until 70 of the common era.
So after, right after Jesus lived, and was crucified. Um, and the early Jesus movement really kind of was taking off already. So it, it lasted until 70 CE. Um, most scholars of Second Temple Judaism will expand that a little bit out, um, usually to, um, to into the second or maybe the very early third century, depending on what their, um, kind of what their focus is.
And a lot of that's because it's kind of a black hole time period. Where, where there wasn't, there's, there is stuff happening and there's material, there's evidence available, there's texts that were written during that time. But, um, but most people don't know about them. They're not in anybody's Bible.
Right. Um, and so, so we often kind of expand that out a little bit and include that in our, in our discussions.
Pete: Just while we're on this, not to monopolize these questions, Anna, but, um, could you, could you distinguish between the Second Temple period. And the so-called intertestamental period. And, um, 'cause those things, you know, it's like, what do you mean it extends to the second or third century?
Yeah. Jesus is here. It's over. Right? Yeah. So, I mean, explain that.
Shayna: Yeah. So, so the, I mean the intertestamental period, what we're really talking about when we use that is we're talking about, um, we're talking about text in canon, right? So we're talking about the Hebrew Bible and we're talking about the New Testament.
We're thinking about when those texts were written. And then we're thinking, okay. Anything in between that is intertestamental. Whether that's physically in that, the, the texts that are called the apocrypha that are held sacred by some, um, some folks. Right. Um, whether that's texts or whether we're thinking about time periods and the people who lived during that time.
The problem is that canon formed so late that it's actually a hugely problematic term. Because there was, there was no intertestamental right there, there weren't two testaments at the time of Jesus. There weren't two testaments right after the time of Jesus.
This didn't happen until the fourth century.
Um, and so very, very late. Um, and so this, this, this word, I don't use the word, I don't like the word, so I'm gonna strike it from your vocabulary. I think it's not allowed.
Anna: So, alright, Shayna, one thing that I have frequently heard people in more evangelical circles say is that from the time of the Old Testament to the New Testament, there were 400 years of silence.
And I don't know if you've heard that before, but I wonder if you could address that, because every time I hear that, I'm like, what do you mean by that? And certainly there wasn't like, did God just take a nap for 400 years? You know? And so yeah, just like what is going on in that time period that, um, more conservative Christians would call the 400 years of silence.
Shayna: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. I mean, and, and it's because of the, the canon doesn't have, right. The canon doesn't tell us those stories. Right. So in, in your Bible that you pick up at, you know, whatever bookstore that you're at or whether you, you have in your home, we don't have those stories of, of things that were happening, but, but we know so much was happening. Daniel is the latest text in the, in the Hebrew Bible and, um, and that was already, you know, the time of the Maccabean revolts.
Um, that's when, that's when it was written. We have texts, first and second Maccabees. That, again, can be found in the apocrypha. Um, but these are texts that, from that, that silent period that help fill in some of these, uh, some of these gaps, some of the silence. You can't read the New Testament without wondering, or I think you couldn't read the New Testament without wondering what are these synagogues? Those were new.
Old Testament. What are, what's with all these demons, right? What, what, like, so these ideas had to develop from somewhere, and they developed in this, this so-called silent period. Um, and so we have, we do have, we have texts, we have material evidence, um, of things that were happening during that time.
Um, and that's, that's my favorite stuff. Right? That's, that's the stuff that I think is, is super cool. Um, as kind of what's, what's, how do we fill in those gaps? How do we explain some of these things we find in the canon?
Anna: Yeah, yeah. There's, there's a, a disconnect there between what we find in the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible canon and then the New Testament canon.
And that can, um, studying not the intertestamental period, the Second Temple period can help fill that in. Um, you mentioned the Maccabean period. What is that?
Shayna: Yeah, so that was, so again, the book of Daniel was, um, at least part of it was probably written during that time period. The, the apocalyptic part, um, was probably written during that time period.
Um, so the, the Maccabees, so, um, the ancient, um, Jews during the second century, um, BCE were, um, were ruled by other people. Um, and they, um, they wanted to, to have self-rule. And so one, one ruler came in and was, um, King Antiochus IV. That's his name. And, you know, he was just like, you know, you, you're basically, he was, he was kinda like, you're a little bit too Jewish for me.
Um, can, can you be, can you be like a little bit, a little bit more, a little bit more secular, a little bit more, right. Like, like us non-Jews, right. Stop, stop with the circumcision. Stop eating kosher. Right? You should be sacrificing to, to other gods, including me, right, as king. Um, and, and, and some Jews were just like, you know, this is not okay.
Um, and so, so they fought back and, and the family who led that were called the Hasmoneans. From that family, the leader of that group was, uh, Judah Maccabee. It was a nickname. It's like, it's like a wrestling name. Um, Maccabee means, like, the hammer.
I always, I dunno, I see ads, um, like billboards for like, you know, in a car accident, call the hammer.
Right? You would call Judah Maccabee to fight the king. And so he kind of helped lead the fight against. King Antiochus and his army. And um, and they did, they did win eventually. And so the Jews, uh, so they had self-rule for about a hundred years.
Anna: Um, I mean, that, that's kind of a big deal, right?
They hadn't had self-rule for so long. And that's something we don't really think about.
Pete: Right. Yeah. Well, they mucked it up, didn't they though?
Shayna: Totally mucked it up, yeah. They, they fought each other, right. Um, and they, um, they argued and they, you know, they did, I guess what people in charge do and, you know, so and so wanted power.
And this one went and they started inviting, um, the help of Rome. Rome was a rising superpower at this time. They're like, hey, maybe you can help me out so I can win this. Right? And so eventually, um, kind of with, with these, um, this infighting and invitations, um, Rome finally was just like, why don't we just conquer you and, and we'll be in charge?
Right. Kind of thing. Um, and that's basically, that's again, in a nutshell, right? That's basically what, what happened.
Pete: Before we move on, could you weave into what we just talked about, maybe the Dead Sea Scrolls a little bit and how they, 'cause that's, that's technically Second Temple literature, right? Yes. I mean, we don't find it in any Bible, but it's, it's there.
So yeah. How, how does that fit?
Shayna: Yeah. So, um, I mean, the Dead Sea Scrolls is a, it's a collection of manuscripts that were found in the Judean Desert. Um, in the 1940s, um, and, and a little bit onward. Um, and it's a, it is a super fascinating story. I'm not the expert to tell you about that story.
You get somebody who's, uh, who can tell that story much better than I could, but they, it's kind of like an archive, right? Or a library of, of texts. So they're not from any, like, there's ancient, um, there's biblical manuscripts found there. There's what we call sectarian literature.
So, um, the people who wrote the sectarian texts that were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls were Jews who relocated to the desert because they were, um, they seemed to have been unhappy with how the priests were running the temple. And so what we, what we find there is that, uh, we have evidence for all sorts of different kinds of Jews, right?
A great diversity of Judaism. When we get to the time of Jesus, um, really just kind of fits in with what's going on, right? There's all sorts of ways to think about religion, think about God, think about how to observe within Judaism, think about how to respond to the temple, how to respond to the Roman authorities, right?
All of that is just so diverse.
Pete: Yeah, there's just so much going on during that period. Um, and it's not the dark ages. No. You know, it's, I wanna come back, uh, just, just to comment on what you said at the very beginning, you know, why should we care about the second temple period? And, uh, you know, James Kugel, who was my professor, he said, you know, people think the exile came and the rest of it is post biblical.
He said, no, that's the biblical period itself. That's when the Bible came to be. And I, I found that it's sort of a big hump for people to get over, Christians specifically, to get over the idea that much of this is a response to the trauma of exile and trying to weave their story together.
And once you see that, it's like. Oh, the pieces start falling into place every now and then, but um, yeah. So, yeah. But anyway, you have a specific area, don't you, that you like to, uh, uh, work in, and why don't you tell us what that is?
Shayna: Sure, yeah. So, so my specialty is the first century of the common era.
So I, I never really, in some ways got past that first New Testament class, uh, right. I just, I just kept, kept working, um, in that area. Um, and, and, you know, and, and beyond that a little bit too. What, um, what I'm, what, the work that I'm doing now is on, um, women from, um, the Herodian Dynasty, from the dynasty that belonged to Herod the Great’s family.
Um, and I'm, I'm particularly interested in some of the, some of the women that we find there who we know very little about from the biblical canon. And we have a few hints, but, we really don't know that much about.
So Herod the Great was the, uh, he was the, um, basically the, the Jew that they, uh, put in charge when the Romans conquered and, and not, not exactly right after, but um, but his family's the one that they put in charge.
The Romans were like, hey, you're, you're, you're Jewish. Um, you're elite. You've been trained, uh, the way Romans should be trained. So he was a Roman Jew, um, why don't you, um, why don't you be king? Right? And so, um, he, he was, yeah, I made, that seems simpler than it is. Uh, there's, you know, there's, um, again, family dynamics and, uh, and everything happening beforehand.
His father was an important guy and stuff like that. So, yeah, so they put him in charge and they're like, okay, you run things for us, but make sure you run them in kind of a Roman way, right? You, you understand the population because you're Jewish. Um, and also you're trained as a Roman, right?
So your education, your, um, kind of your elite status, all that is very Roman. So you're, you're in charge now. And we, so we know Herod the Great a little bit from the New Testament, um, in Matthew 2, um, he's the person or the, the king in charge who, um, is responsible for the massacre of the innocents, right?
The death of all the, all the little babies, that Jesus would have been caught in if he hadn't, is if his family hadn't left Judea.
Anna: He doesn't sound like a very nice guy.
Shayna: Yeah. Yeah, he was definitely, um, maybe a little drunk on his power, you know?
Anna: Also what I hear you saying is he kind of bridges the gap between the Maccabees, so Jewish rule, and then Roman rule. And so he can kind of play, play both sides as a Jew, but then also the Romans are like, but we picked you. Yes. And so he can kind of be a bridge it sounds like.
Shayna: Yes. And it's, it's, uh, it's messier than that too. 'Cause he marries the last Hasmonean woman. He actually has five wives, but one of them, his second wife, is the last Hasmonean princess.
So, so that connection to the Maccabees right. That family was, Maccabee was Judah's nickname, but the family was the Hasmonean. Um, and, and he marries the, the last one of those to kind of solidify that position of power that he has.
Anna: It sounds, it almost, it sounds a little bit like Game of Thrones to me.
Um, just, just a tiny bit. But, um, you mentioned that he shows up in Matthew as the Herod, that's like, let's kill all the babies in Jerusalem, or all the baby boys. Um, where else does the ha um, Herodian Court show up in the New Testament?
Shayna: So, um, so there are mentions of other Herods, this is, this is a problem in this family.
Pete: Pick a name, a name, different name.
Shayna: The name they picked was Herod. That was it, right? Yeah. Everybody was Herod. Herod Antipas is the Herod that is involved, um, around the time of Jesus' death is the one who's involved in the death of John the Baptist.
Um, so that's, that's Herod the Great’s son, one of his sons. Um, there's another Herod mentioned in Acts, um, and that's Herod Agrippa. So now we're going, we're going another, another generation or two later. Um, so we, so we have these kind of, again, multiple Herods. Um, so the, these are where we see the men from the Herodian Dynasty, right?
For the women. We have Herodias who is married to Herod Antipas. And, um, it is her daughter who dances, um, before Herod Antipas. And he says in Mark, he says, you know, whatever, whatever you want, right? It's my birthday. Um, you dance beautifully, everybody's happy. Whatever you want, I will give you up to half the kingdom.
Right? Which major throwback to the Book of Esther here, right? So whatever you want up to have them. And so the daughter goes to her mom, she's like, gosh, mommy, I don't know what to ask for. And her mom's like, Hey, you should ask for the head of John the Baptist. Right. He's been saying some pretty nasty stuff that I don't like.
Um, and so she does and, um, Antipas, in fact, um, and according to the gospels beheads John the Baptist as a birthday gift.
Pete: And, and just to be clear, this is her, the great's granddaughter.
Shayna: Uh, yes. It’s complicated.
Pete: So, so every time I see these kings, I just walk away.
Yeah. I just walk away. It's too much to keep in my head.
Shayna: If it helps you, I'm doing research on this and I still Google the, the, the line. I just like, I need a chart here. Flow trees. Yeah, exactly.
Pete: But it's, it's, what is fascinating though, is. I guess, what, Jerusalem was conquered around 63 or something, right?
Uh, BCE before the, before the common era. Yeah. And you think, well, that's it. They just got rid of everybody. That was before. They just put their own people in there. But it's, it's more complicated, those are ties to the history and, um, I just, I love reminding our listeners that history is complicated, complicated.
And we're getting, you know, these small hints of things that the writers want to tell us, you know, in, in the gospels and, and there's a lot, uh, just to, to humanize these stories, I think is, is just a really important thing. Scholars to do, to say, like I said, there are people behind this, right? And there are movements behind this and things, so.
Shayna: Yeah.
And this one is super messy, right? John the Baptist is critiquing this marriage, um, because she was, Herodias is married, was married originally to Antipas's brother.
And, um, and they meet in this, you know, again, the gospels don't, don't contain this information, but we know it from the first century Jewish historian Josephus, um, that they meet, um, when Antipas is traveling.
And he's like, hey, you should be my wife. And she's like, she's like, sure, but get rid of your first wife.
Pete: Uhhuh.
Shayna: And, um, and then the first wife leaves him. And her father goes to war with Antipas. This is where we find out that Antipas is, um, defeated by his former father-in-law. And Josephus says, I know it's super complicated, right?
And Josephus says that, um, many Jews thought it was because John the Baptist was critiquing Antipas’s marriage to Herodias.
So it's like this whole, it's, it's like a telenovela, right? It's like Game of Thrones, right. It's, it's so messy,
Anna: like the love triangle that is happening.
It's a telenovela or it's like Love Island or something like that. Like that's just, that's mind boggling to me. That they were up to this stuff and then it led of course, of course it leads to war, you know? Right, right. And yeah, and we've gotta like kill our son-in-law and all of that stuff. But that, it's so interesting to me that Josephus, you mentioned, he said that it was because it was like a lot of people thought that it was the judgment, um, because of what John the Baptist had said.
Shayna: Yes.
Anna: That is fascinating. I didn't know that.
Shayna: And Josephus never says specifically that John was beheaded. Um, he just says that, that John the Baptist was arrested. Um, and so we, so it's, it's different than the gospels. It's different than the material. And I would, again, I'm writing about women, the material about Herodias in Josephus is so minimal.
Pete: Oh, wow.
Shayna: Right. It's so played up in the gospels and so it, you just gotta wonder what. Why, why is it so played up? What's happening? Right. As a scholar, these are the questions I ask, right. What is happening that it's important that the blame is hers and not Herod Antipas?
Anna: Oh, that's a great point.
I've never thought about that in Josephus. Is it her fault too?
Shayna: No, she's, I mean, the, there's, the love triangle is still there, right. But um. John the Baptist is critical of the marriage.
Pete: Oh.
Shayna: But she's, she's not calling for his head. She's really not brought up again. So she's, she's a, you know, she's a nothing burger.
Anna: Who are some of the other women that turn up?
Um, so in, so thinking specifically about. Who turns up in the New Testament?
Shayna: Um, we have Queen Berenice, um, often written as Bernice. Um, the Greek is Berenice, which, uh, which is what I call her, uh, but she appears in the Book of Acts, um, Acts 25 and 26, and she, um, she appears beside her brother, who is King Agrippa.
And Paul comes before them, right? And Agrippa says, oh, this man is without blame. You know, he hears the whole thing. He is like, this man is without blame. It's too bad. You said you wanted to, you know, you wanted to, uh, do this before the emperor, 'cause now you gotta go to Rome. And, uh, and you know, and there's that, that we know, we know how that path ends, um, for Paul.
So, um, but she's silent. She's completely silent. Just, just this queen who appears, Jewish queen who appears in the text. Um, but in Josephus, she is amazing. I want t-shirts made with her name on it. Right? She's so cool. Um, she is, um, so she is a queen, um, in her own right. Um, well, she marries, she marries her Uncle Herod, surprise.
Uh, she marries her uncle Herod and has two sons and he dies. And, um, and then she continues to, to kind of rule until her brother is appointed, um, in her former husband-slash-uncle's place. Um, her brother's appointed there, um, but she, she continues to rule beside him.
So it is king and queen, but they're not, they're not a couple, right? They're, um, they're brother and sister ruling. And, um, and anytime he's out of town, which, um, happens, he travels around. Um, she's the one who's calling the shots, and she had ruled by herself right before her brother was appointed. Um, so she's done, she's done all this, um, this like, again, she's, she's so cool.
And, um, she, so she's the queen who's in charge. Her and her brother are in charge when the Jewish War breaks out.
Pete: Hmm.
Shayna: Um, and so, so again, in, in, um, in Acts, she's just a silent figurehead who appears and then disappears and that's it. Right? She's just, and then she's gone and she doesn't say anything.
Um, and in Josephus’s narrative, he talks about, she's in Jerusalem. She actually took a Nazarite vow. She's in Jerusalem, um, dispatching the vow. So she's at the end of the period, she's in the temple, so she's, you know, she's, um, not dressed like a queen, right? She's got bare feet. And her, I said her head is shorn.
I don't know if that actually means she shaved her head or if it's just, um, yeah, I don't know. But, and she's not, she's, so, she's, she's going kind of almost like as, um, as a beggar before God. And, um, and the Roman governor comes in. And is, uh, is kind of fighting with some local Jews. He doesn't like them.
He goes into the temple and he takes some money.
Pete: Hmm.
Shayna: And some of the local Jews are very upset and they start to protest. Right? Yeah. And some other, uh, Jews say, oh, poor Floris, that's the, the governor's name, poor Floris. He doesn't have enough money. And so they start, uh, going around with a collection basket to collect money for him.
Anna: They’re being cheeky,
Shayna: Totally cheeky. It's so, so much sass, but he gets mad. Um, and he sent his army against them. He sends his fighters against them. And, um, and now there's rioting and there's killing in the streets, and there's, and Queen Berenice is there, and she goes before him and she's like, you have to stop this, right?
We'll work this out. We'll fight this, we will work. Right. So she is putting herself in danger. In fact, he sends his men against her and she has to run and hide until, um, until it kind of calms down. But that's, that's really kind of the start in a lot of ways of what leads to the war.
Pete: Mm-hmm.
Shayna: It's really been starting for a long time before this.
Um, but this, this event, right? She starts, um, after this, she starts writing, um, to all the different people in Rome saying like, you've gotta get a new governor in here. This is not working out. This guy is really inciting, um, rebellion by his actions. And you just gotta get him in here and you need to, you need to fix this.
And it's, it, I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't work, right. But she is trying, and Josephus reports all that. She's trying to do this. Um, her brother comes back from his trip and they appear before the people and they try and say, listen, it's one guy who's doing this. You don't need to rebel against Rome.
This is one guy.
Pete: Mm-hmm.
Shayna: Fix this problem and we'll all be good. And so again, it doesn't, it doesn't quite work out that way.
Pete: Well, you know, I just, not to sound like a broken record, but the, the stuff, you know, we're talking about stuff that's well after the time of Jesus.
Uh, a generation or two.
And, but it's all relevant for understanding the Bible, which, you know, a good, the gospels were probably written during that later time. And I think like, you know, I mean, I think a, a Christian bias is, there's a story of Jesus, what's some background that helps flesh that out? It's like that's a side issue.
There's so much other stuff going on that this story sort of has to plug into if we wanna understand it more fully, more robustly and uh, but that takes a lot of work. Or a really good study bible that has maps of Herod's family tree. Yes, I think mine does actually, which I ignore every time I see it.
Shayna: Yeah. And like a pullout map, right? You need multiple pages to pull it out. Have the whole thing. Yeah.
Pete: I'm just glad I do Old Testament or Hebrew Bible. I'm glad I don't have to worry about Herod.
Anna: Okay. Can I just take a minute to recap the history so we have the-
Pete: Go ahead.
Anna: I just wanna make sure I have the timeline right.
Pete: You’re better than I am.
Anna: We've got the Maccabees and then we've got Herod the Great, and then Jesus is kind of in there too. And then Jesus ascends into heaven, and then we get the stir like more stirrings of the Jews wanting to rebel. And that is where Berenice comes in. And, and she's trying to be a peacekeeper, but eventually this does lead to a war with the Jews against the Romans.
Yes. Josephus fights in this war and then writes about it later. Is that the, this is the timeline, right?
Shayna: Yes. Yes. Basically. Basically, yeah. It's simplified, but yes, definitely. And Josephus, I told you he was, he was captured right. And he, he was free. And he worked under the patronage of the Roman Emperor. So some of this, some of this, he was privy to himself, right?
Some of this he had experience with, uh, but who paid his bills, right? Who paid, who paid for his housing and his food, and, uh, the leisure to be able to sit and write, uh, who doesn't want that as a scholar to be able to just sit and write? Um, and it was, it was, it was the Roman Emperor.
Anna: I'm sorry. One more thing.
You mentioned that Berenice was Jewish? that she's married to a Herod who is not Jewish.
Shayna: Also Jewish. Yeah, the Herodians are Jewish and she herself is a herodian. She's not just married to one. It's very incestuous.
Anna: But she sounds very devout too.
Shayna: I, you know, it's, it's really interesting, um, this, like, you bring up really a bigger issue, which is when are we talking, like when we talk about Jews in the first century and Judea, are we talking about Jews who are observant in the way we might think of like a religious person?
We're talking about, uh, Jews, um, who might be secular. Um, and I think it was just as messy and complicated as it is now.
I think it, I really, I really think that there's evidence. Was she devout? Yes. Was she also very Roman? Yes. Did she probably do things that devout Jews wouldn't like, probably. Right.
Um, did she also do things that, that devout Jews would like? Yes. I'm sure she did. Right. And, and so it's, it's so hard, right. But identities are complicated today. Mm-hmm. And I think that they were just as complicated back then.
Pete: Well, so, um, I, I guess it's fair to say that the women of the Herodian Court in the New Testament are at best, maybe underrepresented. And at worst, misrepresented. So let's, let's talk a little bit more in the time we have left about some of these misrepresentations and, uh, just pick one or two you'd like to talk about.
Shayna: When we're thinking about Herodias, so we'll go back to Herodias. So, Berenice is hard because she's barely there. Right. So, she's almost completely misrepresented, right? She's just a figurehead. Um, but for when we go back to Harus, um, one of the things, so one of some of the work that I do is, um, is a meta critical analysis.
So what, what I'm interested in when I, when I talk about a meta critical analysis, is thinking about how other scholars or theologians have talked about, written about, analyzed, whatever I'm looking at. So, so the, the New Testament gives us not very much on Herodias. It's not positive, uh, but if you go back and read, mark is the, the longest narrative, strangely, mark is the longest narrative we have on Herodias, and it's really not that much.
And so you start to, so then I'm like, okay, well, so I can analyze, I’m a biblical scholar, I can analyze this text, no problem. And then I'm like, how have theologians talked about her? How have other scholars talked about her? And she's completely blown out of proportion as being this horrible, terrible woman who is the, you know, it is, if it wasn't for her, John the Baptist would still, would, would have lived, and all this. Just like completely, just completely blown.
Pete: Okay. Okay. Hold on here. So, okay. Is it possible men may have written those, do you think? Oh, I don't know. I'm just wondering. Does that happen in scholarship?
Shayna: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Sometimes
Pete: Everybody, I'm being sarcastic. I know this happens in scholarship all the time.
Shayna: Yeah, so, so, right. So it's just completely blown out of proportion.
Pete: It's like Mary Magdalene.
Shayna: It is exactly like Magdalene is like, it is like Eve. Eve is another, right.
Pete: Jezebel.
Shayna: Jezebel. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah.
Pete: Okay. Yeah. It's a pattern. I see a pattern here. Yeah. Of the misrepresentation of women.
Shayna: Yes. Surprise.
Pete: Well, it might be to some people listening, but it's, it's true. Yeah.
Shayna: Yeah, yeah. So, so, so we see here just completely blown out of proportion.
And in fact it, um, it's interesting that you brought up Jezebel because she is often named alongside Jezebel and Eve as being some of the worst women. If it weren't for them, these things would've happened. Right?
Pete: Oh gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Anybody else?
Anna: Pete, you’re gonna be in so much trouble.
Pete: If people know me, I'm not gonna be in trouble. 'cause they know that. I'm just joking.
Anna: Yeah, that's true. But it is interesting, uh, the way you bring these up, how frequently these women are scapegoated within scripture and then scapegoated again through biblical interpretation that comes later.
So it just kind of, it builds on and then we get just these horrible women. Yeah. Good point.
Pete: So I mean, what could you do, uh, Shayna to, can Herodias be salvaged in some sense? I mean, at least just by not saying made-up bad things about her. Is there anything that we can see about her that might make people say, oh, this is actually a person and, uh, at worth and all that sort of stuff?
Shayna: Yeah. So one, one of the things that I like when I'm teaching this, one of the things that I like to ask my students is, um, well, what do you think the agenda of the author was? Why is she portrayed the way she is in the text? Like, what, what do we think is happening? Um, you know, was it her fault?
Even if it was her fault, why didn't Herod Antipas say, well, no, that's an unreasonable birthday gift and I'm not gonna chop off the head of John the Baptist. Right? Why? So, why is the blame, um, laid down on her feet by her feet? Right. Um, and, and what's, what's going on in the text, right?
And so, um, and so I think that that kind of like thinking about, well, what's, you know, we know that the gospels were written by four different people.
Um, right. We know, we know that there were different authors here and we know that they were writing to different audiences. Am I, am I way off base here? Anna’s looking at me in a way that-
Pete: I think we’re good with that. Yeah. So, okay.
Shayna: Great. Yeah, just checking. Okay. Um, so, so we know, we know that the author must have had a different agenda, different purpose or, or a purpose, an agenda of some kind.
Um, and so by spending some time just dwelling on that idea, could it be that perhaps we need to make it not the fault of the Romans in charge, or less their fault that Jesus eventually dies, that John the Baptist is murdered. Like could taking some of that blame off of the Jewish Roman man in charge might solve or help address some of the sociopolitical problems that the, the earliest, um, Christians were having? In relation to trying to figure out their identity in relation to Rome as their rulers?
Anna: Shoot. No, you gotta say that again 'cause it just hit me what you're actually saying. So you are saying that our biblical author might have been trying to take some of the heat off of Rome to serve their own political purposes?
Shayna: Yes. Wow. Well, I mean, why not? Right? And, and, and I'm happy to hear an argument against that. Why not? Why? Why does Pontius Pilate wash his hands?
Pete: Yeah. Well, I've heard that too with others, I mean, I'm not a New Testament scholar, but I've heard people talk about how pinning it on the Jews that's, it's not just like anti-Semitic.
There's a political angle to that. Oh, yes. When I first heard that, I said, huh, that's okay. There's a lot going on here in these texts, you know? Yeah. And, you know, even if that's not correct, and it probably is, the point though, is that all this stuff in the Bible is written in contexts with, uh, layers of, um, layers of deeper context that we don't even begin to see in the sense the work of historians to try to uncover that.
Or if we can't uncover something new, at least maybe expose the, uh. The misrepresentations? That, or, or, or just, just the bias. All, all authors have biases. Right? Right. Just expose some of the biases and, well, here's probably why he’s saying what he’s saying. If we could only get everybody to think like that, yeah. The world would be a better place.
But that's not gonna happen.
Shayna: Well, we're, we're working on it slowly.
Pete: We are. One commentary at a time.
Shayna: One commentary at a time, one student at a time, right? Yes. And I don't tell them, I don't tell them what the answer is, but you know, what do you think is happening here?
Let's you know, let's stop, stop and think about this.
Anna: Right.
Pete: Right.
Anna: Asking that question, whose interest is being served? Such an important one.
Pete: Yes, exactly right. Yeah.
Anna: Let's circle back to Berenice, because I find her so fascinating. Like what else have you uncovered about her story?
Shayna: Yeah, so she is super, she really is super fascinating.
Um, she is, um, so I, I already talked about her being married to her uncle. Um, and she had a first husband before that, who she was only married to briefly, and that was the nephew of Philo of Alexandria, so really should go know who Philo is. He's a first century, uh, Jewish philosopher from, from Egypt, right.
So she was, um, briefly married to his nephew. And like I said, she remains unmarried for quite a while. And then she's ruling, co-regent with her brother. So there were some rumors that she was sleeping with her brother. And, um, and so after that, Josephus reports that she, uh, basically seduces a man like another king, um, to marry and convinces him to be circumcised 'cause he's not Jewish.
Um, and then shortly after they're married she's just kinda like, yeah, I'm not so interested in this. And so she goes back home, um, and Josephus reports that her, um, her now ex-husband was really glad 'cause he really didn't want to observe, uh, any Jewish laws anyway, post-circumcision. Right.
Anna: I mean, he's already done the big thing, you know?And he’s like, ah, no, none of the other Jewish stuff.
Pete: There’s no going back. I think there’s no going back after that stuff.
Shayna: Yeah. So, and, and Josephus calls this a rumor. It's mentioned, um, it's just referenced one other time, um, in the Roman author Juvenile his book Satires, which is very misogynistic, right?
Very, I mean, the book is called Satires. And so, uh, the fact that scholars have taken this as these two references, one says it's a rumor, and the other is in a book called Satires as evidence of her having this relationship with her brother as evidence of this being like, everybody knew this was happening.
So this is, this is one other, uh, another one of those instances where I'm like, why are we making such big assumptions, right? Where, where, where are our critical thinking caps?
Pete: Mm-hmm.
Shayna: Right? That's, that's what, and these are again, scholars who are writing about this, that, um, that I would just, it's just so, it's baffling to see this.
Um, but it gets better because she's also, she also ends up in a relationship with Titus who becomes Emperor of Rome. The Titus, yes.
Pete: He's sort of important. Yeah.
Anna: How does she get in a relationship with him?
Shayna: After the Jews have revolted, they end up meeting. I mean, we don't, we don't know the details.
Uh, right. Josephus doesn't report on all on, on all the details, so unfortunately we're missing some episodes of the show for that. But, um, they end up in a relationship. They must have met at some point when he was, um, so he was a military, he was a general in the military. And when the Jews first revolted and the Romans were coming, her and her brother were the ones in charge to greet them and, um, and offer them hospitality as they were trying to negotiate the situation.
Pete: Mm-hmm.
Shayna: And so they must have met. Um, and so they end up in this, she's maybe 10 years older than him, so she's, you know, it's a kind of an interesting dynamic. And, um, and she ends up, after the war, she ends up in Rome at least once.
And again, we have some Roman authors who write about her saying, um, you know, she's, she's here, but, but maybe she shouldn't be. Right. Maybe this isn't the best person for Titus. Like, this isn't such a good situation, in other words.
Um, and then he seems to, to send her away. Again, we don't have very much information, but this is not Josephus. Now we're into Roman writers, later Roman, who were writing about these events.
Anna: I mean, the first thing you told us was that she tried to stop the Romans from being super mad. And then like later when the whole whole Jewish uprising is over, she's like, oh, I'll just, I'm gonna get together with Titus. That is a huge flex.
Shayna: Probably before the revolts.
Right? So, so ultimately in, in the revolt, right when the revolt was happening. Her and her brother were not fighting with other Jews against the Romans. Right. Ultimately, this is where I talk about these complicated identities that people have. She is both Roman and trained, educated as a Roman.
And Jewish. Right. But she's elite. Right. And so here she and her brother are both siding with elite Romans.
Pete: So, yeah. So Jews, uh, were not all the same in the first century, which is another prejudice I think Christians have. But, yeah. Well, listen, Shayna, we're, we're coming to the end here, but here's your chance and I'm gonna put you on the spot.
What one thing would you like people to know just about all this stuff and why it's important? Just inspire our listeners to want to dig into some of this stuff and try to understand.
Shayna: That is not a fair question.
Pete: I know it's not, it's horrible.
Shayna: I would like your listeners to know that you don't ask fair questions.
Pete: But if you had to, if your life depended on it. How about this? Not, not to put any pressure on you, but if your life actually literally depended on it, like, um, what, what would you like people to know who just don't know anything about this?
Shayna: I think I would like people to know that Jews and Judaism at the time of Jesus before and after as well, but at the time of Jesus was complicated and complex and messy. Um, and the depictions that we have of the Jews in the Bible, um, in the New Testament, it's not, it's not an accurate depiction.
Again, we have to ask that question. Whose interest does it serve for the, for Jews to be depicted in this way?
Pete: Right.
Shayna: Right. Um, and so, so what's actually going on here and where can we find out more?
Pete: Whose interest does it serve? I think that's a great thing to, to, to leave the conversation with.
'Cause that's an important thing for people to try to understand, I think. All right, Shayna. Well thanks for being with us. We really appreciate it. I had fun. I had fun learning about stuff I knew. The only thing I knew is that Herod the Great died in 4 BC. That's about the only thing that I knew.
Which is awkward, ‘cause Jesus can't be born BC but apparently he was. So anyway. Okay. Anyway, thanks for being with us.
Jared: Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you wanna support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just wanna give a little money, go to thebiblefornormalpeople.com/give.
Pete: And if you wanna support us and want an all access pass to our classes, a free podcast and a thoughtful community of people asking tough questions about the Bible and faith, you can become a member of our online community, the Society of Normal People at thebiblefornormalpeople.com/join.
Jared: And lastly, it goes a long way. If you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show. In addition, you can let us know what you thought about the episode by emailing us at info@thebiblefornormalpeople.com.
Outro: You’ve just made it through another episode of The Bible for Normal People.
Don’t forget you can catch our other show, Faith for Normal People, in the same feed wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for Normal People Team.
[BLOOPER CLIP PLAYS]
Anna: Me. Why, why am I making so much noise when I move?
Pete: It's your chair. Yeah, chair. Don't move. Don't move for half an hour. I, I've been holding as
Anna: I’ve been holding as still as I possibly can. Okay. Um, um, read, I dunno what that is. I wonder what is an airplane?
Pete: Oh, you know what? That is what I'm doing the best I can.
I moved as far away from the window as I could. It happens to be, oh, every time I record something. But this is more blooper material. Joel, if you're listening, mowing every time. Oh, no, they're not mowing. Oh, they are mowing. Mowing and weed whacking outside my window for two hours. They're just, they're not moving.
They're not moving.
Shayna: They're just standing there.
Pete: Yes. It's annoying. So I'm, so Joel can handle that.
