Episode 309: Elizabeth Shively – The Gospel of Mark, Explained

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Pete: Hey, everybody. Today’s episode is just me, Pete, and I’m talking about the gospel of Mark with Elizabeth Shively. Now, Elizabeth is professor of Christian Scriptures at Truett Seminary, where she focuses on New Testament literature and theology, and she’s a contributing author to several upcoming publications on the Gospel of Mark.

So she really, really knows what she’s doing. So basically that’s it. She’s amazing. We had a great discussion. I love the gospel of Mark and I learned a lot. So let’s get into this episode. 

Elizabeth: I think all of Mark as apocalyptic has this sense of, through the story, revealing a deeper reality that’s not always visible to the naked eye.

Mark’s apocalyptic imagination is less. Timelines and more about perspective. It’s a lens of seeing the happenings of the world and the experiences of God’s people, I guess through the lens of God’s in breaking reign into history.

Pete: Elizabeth, welcome to The Bible for Normal People podcast. 

Elizabeth: It’s great to be here. 

Pete: Yeah, it’s great to have you. ’cause I, I love the gospel of Mark and, um. Maybe ’cause it’s the shortest, I don’t know. Okay. Yeah. But I, I, I just, I, I love and I think I, I, I, I wanna learn more about Mark, so this is a great chance to do that.

So, um, anyway, so I mean, just briefly, how did you get into the gospel of Mark of all things? Why not one of the other gospels? 

Elizabeth: Oh yeah, that’s, that’s a great question that, uh, actually is related to your comment about Mark being the shortest. Uh, so when I remember doing a doctoral seminar, uh, in the Gospel of Luke and did some study on synagogues, and I thought, oh, Luke is where it’s at.

And I thought that’s what I was gonna spend my time on. And I did my, uh, my comprehensive exams, which are these, you know, oral exams you have to do to kind of say to your professors, uh, please let me continue and now write my dissertation. 

Pete: And I’ve been appropriately shamed and all that sort of stuff.

Elizabeth: Anyway, I had to answer, I had to talk about Luke, all of that. I, uh, so one of my, uh, professors, her name was Gail O’Day. After that meeting, she came out and said to me, you know what? I think the kinds of things you’re interested in. You might find, uh, that you would like Mark better than Luke.

And, uh, and so I think she was sensing my, just my love of narrative of story of just kind of unraveling mysteries, which Mark has a lot of. And uh, so she suggested that and then I thought, well. It’s a lot shorter, so, so maybe that’s a good idea. So I, I switched. 

Pete: So, uh, okay. Well, well, speaking of Mark then, um, just to onboard us here that maybe have four gospels, right. They’re different, but, right. What is it and how would you put the distinctiveness of Mark? What makes Mark different besides length? What makes Mark different than the others? And, and, and, you know, let’s get into that. 

Elizabeth: One of the things that I think is, uh, really distinctive about, about Mark and keeps me coming back to it is that it is, you know, has his abrupt beginning, this abrupt ending.

And that is different than the other gospels, which, uh, have, uh, well the other synoptics of course have birth narratives and resurrection appearances. And then John also does, uh, so I mean, that’s one mysterious thing, you know, what is Mark doing here? Uh, so, but then I, I think Mark most distinctively connects Jesus’s path of suffering and death and resurrection to the path of his followers.

I mean, the other gospels do that as well. But I, I have this sense when I read Mark that it’s a story, it, of course, it’s a story about Jesus, but it’s also a story that shapes what it means to follow him. And, uh, and so that I think, to me, makes Mark so, so compelling. Um, it invites us in some way to see ourselves in the story by the way, Jesus, uh, Jesus interacts with his disciples. 

And, and not only that, but they just keep missing the point. And that’s something that, uh, you know, it’s, most scholars think that Matthew knew of Mark, and you can see a lot of mark in Matthew. But Matthew tweaks that a bit. And so where, uh, the stories where Mark has the disciples just completely not getting it, uh, in Matthew, Jesus explains a few things and then they understand.

And so, uh, Matthew, uh, kind of, uh, massages that a bit. Um, and, and to me, I feel like that’s, that’s really helpful, that has, um, some currency because again, it helps me to see myself in the story. 

There’s a, a southern writer called Walker Percy, and uh, he wrote, um, a book called Strangers in a Strange Land.

I think that’s right. 

Pete: Hmm. 

Elizabeth: Um, but he has a line in it where he says, bad books always lie. They lie, most of all about the human condition, so that one never recognizes oneself, the deepest part of oneself in a bad book. 

Pete: Wow. 

Elizabeth: And so I think Mark is a good book. Because it tells, tells the truth about human frailty and divine faithfulness and, uh, and, and helps us to evaluate that.

And I, and I think Mark does that, uh, again, the other gospels have elements of that. Uh, but I think Mark does that in a, a, a really, uh, strong way. 

Pete: Yeah, that, I mean, I’ve never heard it put quite that way before that. That is very helpful to see. You know, the value of Mark’s gospel just the way it is giving us a chance to reflect, I guess, on our own journeys of faith or, or something like that. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. It just, it just doesn’t tie everything up neatly. Uh, yes. And so, uh, and so I think that, that, that’s something that the other gospels do. Mark leaves things kind of messy. Uh, and then we have to wrestle with what it means to follow a suffering Messiah.

Pete: I, I think, um, just, just lingering on that for a moment, and I, I, I just had a flashback of a memory here that I heard someplace that, um, Mark’s Gospel is really good at trying to argue for the crucifixion of Jesus not being an impediment to his calling, but actually being the, the heart of it. And so Mark’s sort of an apology for that.

Do, I mean, is that, am I hearing that correctly? Does that make sense? Is this distinct from other gospels, or is just something all gospels do? 

Elizabeth: Yeah. I think in some sense they all do that. But I do think that Mark is not simply saying, you know, here’s Jesus, here’s information about Jesus.

Or even simply answering the question, what did Jesus come to do? I think he is like he is, right at the very beginning, Mark gives us this inside information that none of the other characters have. Which is that Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God. Uh, and so I that like it’s-  

Pete: First line comes outta the gate with that, right?

Elizabeth: Yeah. Right. But then you have all these people, once Jesus starts his public ministry saying, who is this? How can he do that? Where did he come from? And Mark never answers those questions and Jesus never answers those questions. So it kind of feels like those questions are left with the reader.

And, uh, and so I, I think Mark is, you know, saying out, out of the gate, like you said, who Jesus is. And then he is working his way through, uh, telling this story. To say, how can this man who doesn’t look like much, who suffers and dies a criminal’s death on a cross, how can this man possibly be the Messiah and son of God?

Pete: Right. I imagine that’s a question that a lot of people were asking too, you know? And I guess it was the theologians that were working that out.

Elizabeth: Yeah, yeah. 

Pete: That’s still relevant today, I think. I mean, just that question is like, what? What are you talking about here? So, yeah. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s, it’s just thinking about Mark and what Mark’s doing.

Um, it’s not that, you know, people were already, people who read or heard Mark’s gospel probably mostly heard it. Uh, they already heard news that Jesus had risen from the dead. They were, I mean, Christian communities are already meeting. They’re practicing the Lord’s supper. They’re practicing baptism and it’s not an information problem.

It’s not that they need this information that they didn’t have before about what happened. It’s a, a question about what the events mean, not so much what they are. I think what they’re, and I think that helps us to maybe understand what, what Mark is doing. 

Pete: Yeah. Right. Well, um, you, you talk about how Mark has, um, an apocalyptic imagination, which is a, I love that phrase.

But can you, can you explain that, um, especially for those of us who, when we hear apocalyptic think video games or the end of the world or something like that.  

Elizabeth: Right, right. Yeah. And I have to admit, I, I stole that, uh, that phrase from John Collins who wrote a book, The Apocalyptic Imagination.

But I felt like it, it applied so well to mark that I thought, ah. You know, let’s talk about Mark’s apocalyptic imagination and, um, and so, uh, I, I think, yeah, you’re right, it’s- Mark’s apocalyptic imagination is less about timelines and more about perspective. It’s about, how do we see the world? It’s about, um, showing that God has broken into the world and is doing things in the world now, and the world is going towards a, a certain end that God’s in charge of.

Uh, it, it’s a lens of seeing the happenings of the world and the experiences of God’s people, I guess through the lens of God, in breaking reign into history. What I would say about Mark is that, and I think this is true of really all the New Testament writings is that, you know, we tend to go to Mark 13.

Think about the, this is the, the, where Jesus, um, predicts the coming of the son of man, the destruction of the temple and think, oh, there’s the apocalyptic part of Mark. But I think all of Mark, uh, is, is, is apocalyptic has this sense of, uh, of, of, through the story revealing a deeper reality that’s not always visible to the naked eye. 

Pete: I think that’s very helpful.

Can you flesh that out a little bit maybe. ’cause if you’re not gonna go to Mark 13, right. Are there any passages that maybe really raise that to, to your consciousness very nicely and neatly? 

Elizabeth: Yeah. There, I mean there are a few places. Uh, one is just right at the very beginning in the prologue where, um, Mark is presenting Jesus’s coming on the scene, uh, and kind of fitting into Israel’s ongoing history, uh, with the quotations, um, from Isaiah and some other texts at the beginning. 

And, uh, I mean, I mean, expectations about what the Messiah do were certainly varied, but there is this sense of the Messiah coming to vanquish the enemies of God’s people. Um, Mark, I think right at the very beginning, turns that around and says, yes, Jesus is coming in fulfillment of what Isaiah promises.

Uh, but this is going to look like a, uh, Jesus being filled with the spirit. God breaking into, uh, mm-hmm. You know, breaking the Heaven and Jesus doing battle with Satan, right? And so it, it, like right from the very beginning, I mean, we can’t see that with the human eye, but Mark is, is showing from the beginning, uh, you know, Jesus being filled with the Spirit, the Spirit throwing him out in the wilderness to, uh, to do battle with Satan. 

Um, and, and that’s kind of giving us eyes to see from the get go, this, this reality that’s taking place, uh kind of behind the scenes of what’s, what’s playing out on the ground. 

Pete: Yeah. That, that’s really interesting that he is flushing out this transcendent reality that we might not see just plainly. And he’s pointing that out, right? 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Well, and the other place I would say is the, the parable of the sower, because which Mark tells us, Jesus tells us is about the kingdom of God that what looks insignificant, what looks, uh, what looks like it’s going nowhere, what looks very problematic is, uh, and it looks very small, is something, uh, that, you know.

We can’t see what the end is gonna be. We can’t see how it’s gonna unfold. But, uh, but Jesus says in that, in that parable that, uh, there’s gonna be, it’s like planting a mustard seed, like really small. You can’t see it.

But then, uh, the kingdom. Is gonna grow, uh, in ways that are, are unexpected. So I think that kind of apocalyptic, like being able to see what the human eye can’t see is, uh, you know, fits into that whole suffering. You know, how can the suffering Messiah be ushering God’s kingdom, how can Jesus’ followers who are suffering be part of that kingdom?

And so, uh, this apocalyptic imagination gives us eyes to see a, uh, I guess a future that is blossoming that we can’t see, uh, you know, through, through our human perception. 

Pete: Right. I guess maybe that’s the point of it all, to see that bigger picture and such, so, yeah. So, okay. There’s, there’s one story that you seem to like, the Beelzebub story.

That, um, I, I, if I’m saying this the wrong way, correct me, but that sort of is a good summation of the, of, of maybe a way of latching on to distinctives of Mark’s gospel. So what, explain that. ‘Cause that’s, that’s a wonderful thing. Maybe people can just go to that passage too, to sort of see how things work out.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I, I think that’s, that’s right. And it’s actually, I would say tied to the, the prologue, uh, Mark puts that story pretty early on in, in chapter 3, after Jesus has just begun his ministry. Uh, the other gospels put it later. Um, and, uh, and so I mean in this story, just so you know, people are aware of what we’re talking about here.

Uh, Jesus some scribes come to Jesus and accuse him of casting out demons by the power of Satan. And, uh, we already know that Jesus is casting out demons by the power of the Spirit if we’re, you know, reading or hearing this story all along. And, uh, the issue is that the scribes have. Jesus has challenged their authority, um, in one of the first scenes where, uh, Jesus is in a synagogue, he’s teaching, and a man comes, uh, who’s possessed by a spirit, uh, evil spirit.

And Jesus casts out the spirit, and the people marvel and say, you know, what is this, uh, the teaching with authority. So they’re, they’re, um, associating Jesus’s word to cast out the demon with his authoritative word to teach. And then Jesus has all these conflicts and then the scribes have had it.

So they say, well, you know, we’re gonna get this Jesus, and we’re gonna tell everybody that. Uh, he’s casting out demons by Satan. And so, uh, Jesus responds with a series of little parables. Uh, no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder goods unless he first binds the strong man. And, and so, um, what he’s doing there is, uh, it’s actually one of, um, three places where Jesus explains his mission.

Uh, so I think that’s a really important story. Um, the other or other, it makes it important. Uh, the other two places are in Mark 10:45, where Jesus says that the son of man has come not to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many. And the other places in chapter 14 where Jesus institutes the Lord supper and he explains his, his blood and his body as the, the, the elements there. 

Um, so here Mark is explaining his, uh, his ministry to cast out demons and is, is picturing, um, and this is why I think it’s really important for, for Mark, is it gives this image of Jesus is entering a world that in many respects, Satan rules, um, through foreign occupation, through sin, through disease, through demon possession. It’s a world in crisis. 

And so, um, Jesus doesn’t enter that world, uh, as a, you know, neutral observer, but as the spirit-anointed servant and Messiah who has infiltrated Satan’s house, which is the world, to kick him out and establish God’s reign. And this is what we see. And this is why I think this is so important to, um, to the rest of the, I mean, it, it kind of reaches back into what Jesus is, has started to do in the, uh, the temptation account. 

And then we see as Jesus goes on as ministry and is healing people, casting out demons and, uh, just engaging with, uh, people who are oppressing other people. Um, and then as he moves towards his death, uh, it’s, it’s kind of unfolding this way that Jesus is kicking out the straw man. 

Pete: I want to get back to that later. The straw man and this whole demonic and satanic, let’s call it, backdrop for this ’cause that’s mean, that’s really important for antiquity. 

But then how, how can we, how can we reference that today, reading Mark? But let, let’s leave that for the end that I, that to me, that’s a huge question. You mentioned, uh, the abrupt beginning and the abrupt ending. So, uh, talk about the abrupt ending. What’s abrupt about it? 

Elizabeth: You might notice that in most English translations, uh, you’ll have an ending at 16, chapter 16, verse 8, which, uh, has the women, uh, running away because they’re afraid and they don’t tell anyone what the, uh, the young man at the tomb told them to say, which was that, uh, Jesus had risen from the dead. 

Um, and then, uh, you might see another, uh, part that continues from verses 9 to 20. That is a longer ending. It’ll probably be in brackets and there’ll be a note that says, uh, most manuscripts or, or manuscripts, uh, the earliest manuscripts don’t have this, or something like that.

Um, so, uh, most scholars agree that 16:8 is the earliest or initial reading, the earliest we have, but then there’s some debate about whether Mark intended that ending. So is that where Mark is supposed to end? Uh, without, I mean, that the issue is there, we don’t see resurrection appearances.

It ends with, well, the announcement of an empty tomb, but then, uh, there’s no announcement of that empty tomb, you know, by those who are there. Um, and it ends in fear and, uh, and lack of faith. Uh, and so or so did Mark mean that, or, uh, does he, did he not get to finish it? Or was the true ending lost, there’s some scholars who think that, that there’s a true ending of Mark that looks a lot like what we see in, in Matthew and Luke. 

We just don’t know that it’s, it’s speculative leaves us, uh, unsettled. Um, and, and I, if that’s. The point, I mean, if we’re reading Mark’s Gospel all along, um, I, I’m a big proponent of, uh, of reading the parts in light of the whole and the whole in light of the parts.

And that’s not how we tend to read. We tend to, you know, hear little snippets at church or in our devotional time or just when we’re reading, but if we’re reading Mark all along, uh, we can see that, um, this kind of unsettledness and this, uh, lack of, um, this, this kind of contrast between fear and, and faith, uh, all along.

And, uh, and I think there’s, um, I mean there’s so much that I could say about the ending, um, and the way that, that I think Mark is, um, unfolding it, but I, uh, if I could say this, I, I think it’s actually helpful to read, to actually start reading towards the end of 15, which is where, um, we see these three women who are, uh, who are named for the first time.

Three women are named for the first time in the gospel. And, uh, and, um, there, there are two Mary’s and a Salome and, uh, and, before that all, I mean, all the women except for Mary, the mother of Jesus, they’ve been anonymous, but here they’re named for the first time they’re at Jesus’s- I mean, the men have fled.

These women are at the cross, albeit from a distance, and they’re seeing what’s happening, and then they go to the tomb and Mark calls them, uh, says that they served, um, they had been following him in Galilee. And you know, because Mark has kind of kept the women anonymous, it’s almost like this moment where we, this aha moment where we kind of can look back in the gospel and see the women and the margins all along following Jesus.

And, uh, and it looks like maybe they’re gonna be able to do what the male disciples haven’t, which is to get it. Um, but then, uh, on, on the third day when, I mean if they’d been following Jesus since Galilee, they would’ve heard Jesus, um, predict his passion. And, uh, but on that third day, where Jesus predicted he would raise, they go to the tomb looking for a dead body, and so they flee.

It’s the same language as back in chapter 14 where the men flee, uh in the Garden of Gethsemane, um, they flee. And so it’s, it’s almost like, it’s almost like in this very last scene, mark is showing us, like in a nutshell, this like upward and downward trajectory of discipleship that has been kind of unfolding throughout the whole narrative.

And now showing, okay, nobody gets it. Nobody understands, men, women, everyone has a problem that, um, that can only be, uh, overcome by the God who raised Jesus from the dead.

Pete: I hope the original ended at verse 8. Because that’s beautiful to me. Yeah, that’s, that’s, it’s almost like, so what do you say? You know, what, what would you do? And I love that. And um, you know, if, correct me if I’m wrong, but the, the, the other ending or endings, you know, that are after that, they, they look like Matthew and Luke in places.

It’s like somebody just said, yeah. I, I just feels like, oh, somebody, screwed, we gotta get an ending in here. I can’t, I can’t end like this. People will be confused. And, um. I mean, just not to get off topic, but that’s just an interesting, uh, kind of like say doctrine of scripture, you know, that, that you need to be flexible to see these kinds of things concurring or debating with each other, maybe to certain.

I don’t wanna overstate this whole ending business, but it’s like the whole gospels as a whole. You know, Matthew is adjusting Mark probably. And Luke maybe adjusting both of them. And, um, I, I just, I find that fascinating ’cause it allows, and I’m speaking here as a college professor too.

The, I think the humanity of these texts that they’re actually thinking about, what, how do I wanna present this? Like you said, it’s not just information. It’s like, let’s, let’s, let’s pull back the curtain and see the deeper significance to all this. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I would agree.

I mean, I can’t prove it, but I, I do have a sense that the intended ending is at Mark 16:8. It fits, uh, I mean, when I, I have my, my students, when I teach on Mark, we’ve been reading the whole thing all along. And so when we get to the end, uh, I feel like they, and I ask them, does this, it may not be a satisfying ending, but is it a suitable ending for Mark? Does it fit? And, uh, and without a doubt, I mean, most students will say, yes, this fits. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Elizabeth: And so I, I think that’s a, uh, maybe getting away from trying to find something that’s satisfying, ask, is it suitable? Does it, does it suit what Mark seems to be doing all along? 

Pete: Yeah. 

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm. 

Pete: You also, you also talk a bit about, uh, implied author and audience. What the heck does that mean? 

Elizabeth: Yeah, it’s-

Pete: And why is it important? 

Elizabeth: I’ve kind of been changing my view of how important and how helpful those categories really are. Um, but these are categories or ways of, um, trying to analyze a narrative like Mark, um, using narrative like narratology narrative theory, uh, that, um, I think Mark and scholars started to use like maybe in the, like, 1970s, 1980s. Uh, and so the implied author and the implied audience are the kind of storyteller.

And the kind of listener that the text seems to assume. Okay. So it’s not the, it’s not the actual person who wrote the gospel or the actual people who first heard it. Instead, it’s the kind of author and the kind of audience that when we read the details of the story, we think, ah, the, the author must have been like this, or the audience must have picked up that. 

And so it’s, they’re, they’re really textual constructs, um, because it’s like information we get from the text that. Uh, like the implied author is the version of the author that we infer from the story that he, you know, knows Greek and he knows the Jewish scriptures and, uh, certain things like that.

And the text gives certain cues then that, uh, the, an audience who is following those cues would, um, would, would get. So, uh, so like repetition of certain things that the audience would, would pick up on repetitive elements and, uh, and, and understand what, what the implied author is, is trying to do.

In some ways I think these, these constructs can be helpful when we’re, we’re trying to, uh, to read, to do a close reading and to pay attention to, uh, the details of the text and, uh, and the kinds of, um, I guess rhetorical features that we see in the text. Like if Mark is using irony or if, again, Mark. Uh, one thing Mark likes to do is to sandwich one story in another story. 

So, uh, which seems to suggest that we read that one, the middle story in light of the outer two stories. 

And so, uh, the implied, um, the implied author idea would be, okay, here’s the, the communication of the text, right?

The, the, um, the implied reader would pick up on that, uh, that framed story and uh, and be able to see one in light of the other.

So, and, and I think it’s also become helpful for, um. Uh, for those who wanna read. I mean, lots of people use implied author and implied audience. But, um, but I think it supports the idea that the real author, even though we don’t have access to the real author, had some kind of communicative intent 

Pete: Yes.

Elizabeth: That we can like, kind of uncover. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Elizabeth: Um, where I found that. I guess I’ve been wondering about the, the limitation is that not all actual readers, ancient or modern fit the mold of the implied author. The implied author, because it’s a textual construct, can maybe tell us, um, something about the, uh, you know, the, the hypothetical audience that the author was imagining when the author wrote these things down. 

But not every actual reader is gonna pick up on every cue. Not every actual reader is going to want to pick up every cue. You know, either for lack of understanding or resistance. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Elizabeth: Um, and so, um, they may have, uh, you know, background information that they bring to the text, um, and, to try to make sense of it that is maybe different than what the, the author or the writer expected. And, um, and so, and I think for modern readers, uh, who we come from a very different cultural and theological background, uh, our responses to this story might be different than, uh, some earlier audiences, uh, audiences.

And so, um, I, so I think, I think that can be helpful, um, to actually maybe think about varieties of actual audiences because, um, I, I think this can be helpful for teaching and preaching because if we’re speaking to real people instead of just, you know, kind of putting out there the what an ideal or what an implied audience may have picked up, we have to recognize that people were teaching and preaching to have different backgrounds, different questions, um, different ideas, different hopes, um, and, and to be aware of how they might respond. Some might get it right away. Others might need help filling gaps, others might push back. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Elizabeth: And, uh, and so I, I think, um, yeah, so that’s where I see the limitations of the implied, especially implied audience category, is that it can, uh, it can make us forget that they’re actual real people reading these and hearing these texts. 

Pete: Right. Well, I mean, that, that brings up an interesting question. You know, um, you know, the four gospels were all written to certain communities. At least that’s, that’s what people tend to say. Um, do we, do you feel comfortable as an academic person talking about what Mark’s actual historical community might have been like, where, where were they or what kind of faith did they have? 

You know? ‘Cause the gospels differ. And, and I guess it’s because they’re saying different things to different people, right? And, and they want to get certain things across. So, but, but do we know anything about Mark’s people?

Elizabeth: Um, yeah. It’s, uh, you know, in the past, uh, couple decades, it’s been, I guess, become more problematic to say like there was this specific community that Mark was writing to, or that the other gospel writers were writing to. Uh, it, I guess, becomes a bit speculative. I mean, there’s certain, certain things that we can know when we do historical research, but, um, I, I do think Mark is intending to communicate, or whoever the writer was intending to communicate something to actual people, uh, like the other gospel writers.

Um, but maybe to think about, um, like a reading community or, uh, like a, a, a, some kind of reading community, uh, or communities that maybe Mark or and the other gospels were, were intending to communicate. And the choices you make, I mean, choices, um, choices signify meaning, so choices and to begin and end in a certain way, to use certain language to, uh, to use, uh, Israel’s scriptures in order to explain Jesus.

There’s gotta be a communicative intent there. To me, it doesn’t make sense otherwise. And so, um, there, there ought to be some audience that I, I think each of the gospel writers had in mind, but it might be a little more broad than this single, uh, community that we can identify. 

Pete: Like in my town or something like that. Um, I mean, I don’t, I really don’t know the answer to this, but, uh, you know. I wonder if Mark was writing and saying, boy, I hope this gets circulated all over the place. May, maybe he was, I mean, yeah, Matthew seemed to know about it. You know, Luke seemed to know about it.

It just, it’s, to me, it’s a mystery actually. I mean, I, I don’t study this stuff like you do, but just finding out audiences and things. It is speculative. But it’s sort of fun to try based on, you know, what, what do they need? Like John’s gospel, you know? This is a later generation. 

They’re, they haven’t seen Jesus, so there are things thrown in there about, you know, um, blessed are those who believe, who haven’t seen, you know, that, that kind of thing. That, that makes me think, okay. I think, I think I’m, maybe I’m picking something up about the audience, but, um, it’s actually much more complicated than that. And, uh, wonderfully so. Wonderfully so. A scholarship, you know?

Elizabeth: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, uh, I mean, it was, uh, uh, Richard Balcom wrote a book called The Gospels for All People. I think that’s right. But he argued that all four of the gospel writers, uh, originally intended a wide audience instead of a specific one. Um, and so I’m not sure I completely agree because of, simply because of the differences among the gospels, which seemed to suggest that they are communicating something particular to the people. 

So, um, I. I think maybe I, I would be more comfortable taking kind of a middle view that the gospel writers had some kind of audience in mind, otherwise how can they communicate? And that seems to explain the choices that they make that are different. Um, but that they eventually imagined that their, their writings would have a, a wider audience. 

Pete: Well, I wonder if Mark just, I mean, I guess we’re just speculating on top of speculation here, but I just wonder if Mark just said, like, most authors, I have something I want to say. I think it’s worth saying, I want as many people as possible to know it.

And, you know, maybe that was affected by his community. Those kinds of questions. I guess at the end of the day, who the heck knows, 

Elizabeth: right? Yeah. I mean, all of this is, these are all working hypotheses, right? 

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. Educated guesses. They are educated, but they’re still guesses in it.

All right. So I, I need you to talk about a couple things and Okay. You ready? Okay. Um, the Syrophoenician woman, let’s start with that whole story. I love that story. I don’t think I get it, but so help me understand it. 

Elizabeth: Okay. Um, yeah, here’s, here’s what I, again, where I feel like, uh. Reading the parts in light of the whole and the whole in light of the parts is really important, um, for this story and for every story.

For this story, of course, it sounds like Jesus is being rude, uh, at best calling this woman a dog, resisting her request. And, uh, you know, our instinct is to rescue Jesus from sounding mean. Um, and so, um, but, but I actually think when we look at some of the cultural and narrative context, um, it’s a little more complex than that.

Pete: Yeah. 

Elizabeth: Um, I, I, I think that, um, there a few things going on here. Um, one thing, if we’re reading the narrative or hearing it all along, we know that Jesus isn’t against Gentiles because he’s, all the way back in chapter three, uh, we read that people from Tyre and Sidon, um, have come to him, which is where this woman’s from.

And Mark doesn’t tell us that. He said, no, I’m not gonna heal you. I’m just gonna heal the other people in the crowd. So, you know, and also, the longest miracle story in, um, in Jesus’, or sorry, in Mark’s gospel is the where the demoniac is. Healed in chapter five, right. And of course this is in Gentile territory, so Jesus doesn’t have anything about against Gentiles. 

Um, so I, I think that’s, that’s one thing. But we also see that there are groups of Gentiles who do resist him. So for instance, in that Demoniac story, we see the townspeople who completely don’t get it, and they want Jesus to get out of town.

Pete: Right. Right. 

Elizabeth: Uh, so I think, so I think that’s important. The other context that’s important is that Mark in the parable of the sower tells us that Jesus doesn’t, he tells parables and he doesn’t teach without parables. 

And, uh, and most of what Jesus says throughout Mark, it’s in parables and he speaks in parables to distinguish between those outside who don’t understand, and those inside who do, although we find out that even the insiders don’t understand. 

Pete: Yes. 

Elizabeth: Um, so that’s another important piece of information. Um, and then finally, and I’ll draw this all together. I think, uh, just before this, there is an incident where, uh, some Pharisees, uh, and their scribes come to Jesus and say, why are your disciples eating without washing their hands?

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Elizabeth: Right. And then, uh, Jesus makes a, a distinction between, um, or this is Mark’s interpretation, that Jesus is making a distinction between clean and unclean food, calling off foods clean. Mark gives this indication of Jesus there. And, and Jesus tells a little parable there about, um, about the food going, uh, the, the food coming in and the food going out.

Mm-hmm. And the disciples go to Jesus and say, explain this parable to us. We don’t understand it. Um, so, uh, and this is, this is the case and Mark tells parables, sorry. Jesus tells parables to everybody. 

But he explains them to his followers. And even then they don’t like, they, they can’t understand without his explanation, right?

And then he explains it and they still don’t ever quite get it. So, okay, now we’ve got this woman who is, uh, she is an outsider, she’s a gentile. So we might expect, and Jesus might expect that she’s not gonna understand, um. These, uh, the blessings of the kingdom of God. 

And so he does actually, he acts in character with what he’s said before, which is that he speaks in parables to everyone and only gives explanation to his disciples.

So he tells her a little parable. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Elizabeth: And, uh, and so, I think the, the, the dog imagery, um, I would say it’s, I would liken it to, uh, it is negative language. I don’t think we can understand, um, what’s going on here, uh, without that, right? Um, but I think it’s, um, similar to say what Matthew is doing when he says, um, I can’t remember where, but he’s, he warns, uh, Jesus warns his followers not to give what is holy to dogs or to throw pearls before swine.

I think that’s the function of the dog language in the context of Jesus telling parables to outsiders is, you know, I’m not gonna give the blessings of the kingdom to people who aren’t gonna get it. And so what happens then, and I think this again, is on the heels of the disciples not getting a parable.

There’s no explanation of this parable. But the woman, woman understands the parable, and not only that, she enters the world of the parable. 

Pete: Ah, yeah, yeah. Right. 

Elizabeth: And responds to Jesus with her own parable, right? 

Pete: Yes. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Um, and so, I mean, this is like on like, what is it? Bloom’s taxonomy, it’s like the highest level of understanding.

Um, and so, uh, so yeah, she speaks back to, to Jesus and Jesus didn’t say. When he says, let the children receive the bread first, he doesn’t say only the children would be, um, the, yeah. You know, people of Israel. Yeah. He doesn’t say, let. Let the children of Israel or the children receive only, but first, and this is what Jesus does.

He’s going to Israel first and then to Gentiles. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Elizabeth: And we have a sense from, I think all the gospels and even Paul talks about going first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. Um, is that Jesus’ earthly ministry, even though some, you know, gentiles will benefit from it. He’s going first to, uh, to Israel.

And then the gentile ministry is for after, or the widespread gentile ministry comes, uh, after the resurrection. 

And so, uh, I, I think there’s a tendency not just to wanna rescue Jesus, but also to say, you know, is he, is, is the woman changing his mind or is she not changing his mind? 

Pete: Yes.

Elizabeth: I think it’s more complex than that. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Elizabeth: I think that she is not changing Jesus’ mind in terms of the, uh, what Jesus sees as the, um, kind of unfolding mission to the Gentiles. That, that the large mission is for later. Um, but I think, and she’s not changing his mind about the value of Gentiles because we know from the story that he already values Gentiles.

But she’s changing his mind about her and her daughter. Um, because she understands and because she understands. Again, it’s the point of the parable. The point of parables is to, um, to, to, to really weed out who understands and who doesn’t. And so Jesus telling this parable to this woman actually has the desired effect.

Which is to expose her understanding. And because of that, then Jesus heals, uh, um, heals, heals her daughter. So, yeah. So I think it’s, it’s more complex than simply saying Jesus is being mean or, uh, or, um, you know, she changes his mind or she doesn’t. I think Jesus is doing exactly what he said he would do, telling parables to outsiders.

Uh, not because he’s denigrating the outsiders, but because outsiders aren’t supposed to understand. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. Um, but 

Elizabeth: But then she does, and then he responds. Yeah. 

Pete: Well, I, I think that’s hugely helpful for, for readers to remember that. You just can’t look at that story in isolation.

You have to read it in light of the whole, the whole thing. Yeah. And the fact that Jesus already has sympathy for Gentiles. Yeah. And concern for Gentiles. Yeah. That might alert us that maybe this isn’t like just on the surface what it seems to be this something else going on here. Yeah. And it might take some legwork to find it, you know, which is welcome to the Bible. 

The other thing I want to talk about. You, you can’t talk about Mark without the Messianic secret. 

Elizabeth: Ooh, yes. The Messianic Secret.

Pete: Can, can you get into that a little bit? Like what is it and who cares? 

Elizabeth: Yeah. So, um, it, it refers to, well, I mean, it came from a, uh, a guy called Wreda who wrote this book in 1901 called The Messianic Secret. And, uh, and so what this refers to is these repeated moments when Jesus tells people not to talk about who he is or what he is done.

So he tells demons who recognize him, don’t tell anybody, tells people he’s healed don’t spread the word. He even tells his disciples not to reveal that he is, uh, the Messiah. And so what, what Wreda argued in his book is that Mark invented this secrecy motif. Like it’s what? This wasn’t his history thing. 

But it’s a secrecy most motif as a kind of a theological coverup. Um, that the historical Jesus didn’t actually claim to be Messiah, but that Mark writing later wanted to present him that way. So the secrecy motif, according to Wreda, was this literary device to explain why Jesus wasn’t going around saying, hi, I’m the Messiah.

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Elizabeth: So, uh, yeah. Um, I, I think what I would say is, uh, since then, most scholars today, and I would see the secrecy theme as not quite a cover story, but it’s a key part of how Mark tells the story of Jesus. And how he keeps the, under the audience’s understanding of who Jesus is. And I, I would say, I think there’s probably both a historical and a literary and theological element to it.

Um, historically. I don’t have a problem thinking that Jesus probably did say those things or tell some people, um, not to say who he was and, uh, and so I don’t think it was about hiding something, but probably about the timing of Jesus’ ministry and going to his death and all of that.

Pete: If you blow the lid on that at the beginning .

Elizabeth: Yeah. 

Pete: You know, it’s just, you gotta just. Don’t tell people or they’ll get the wrong idea or something maybe. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. That, that’s right. And so it’s, uh, you know, there there some people who might have seen Jesus’s miracles and thought, oh, wonder worker, or like actually in the gospel of John, Mark reports it differently. But in John 6, when Jesus feeds the multitude, he slips, you know, slips away because they see, recognize what he’s doing. They wanna make him king. That’s what John says, right? And so, uh, so that’s how I kind of see this, is that Mark is saying, um, you know, not so fast or Jesus is saying, not so fast, let’s, you know, pump the brakes on this a bit. 

Right. Um, until things happen as. I, I think God is holding these things to happen. Um, so, uh, yeah, so I think it probably is just, um, reflecting something historical, but then also something, um, literary and theological. Mm-hmm. Uh, it’s a, I think a literary strategy to, um, I think to, to, to show and maybe help an audience wrestle with this, um, the misunderstanding that is happening, right?

I think it’s tied to this misunderstanding. Um, 

Pete: And that’s, um, that is a distinctive element of Mark. The other gospels don’t talk like that. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. That, yeah, that’s right. 

Pete: That alone is interesting. Why, why they don’t pick up on that. But that’s, that’s another podcast interview I think.

Right? Just maybe just in the, we’re coming to the end here, and I think maybe just from a, maybe tying this into today a little bit, uh, you know, we talked about earlier, you mentioned about, you know, Jesus at the outset battling, let’s say the celestial power, the, the, the ruler of this world, the prince of this world, wherever we wanna put it.

So how does Mark, tying this into the apocalyptic imagination. Yeah. How, how might that speak to modern anxieties, whether that’s a big question about political, personal, ecclesiastical, everything like that. I can’t help but think this, this is something worth listening to here.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because I think what Mark’s apocalyptic vision does is it, it’s not inviting us to escape the world. Uh, I think it’s, as I mentioned before, it’s Mark is inviting us to see the world more clearly, to kind of pull back the curtain and say, this is what’s really going on when the Messiah is suffering, when God’s people are suffering, and to say, uh, you know, it’s, it’s not comfort. That is, it’s not suffering that’s strange. 

Suffering is the way that if God’s people are gonna follow in the footsteps of Jesus, then it’s to be a servant, it’s to be last. It’s to, uh, give your life, um, for others. Uh, and so, um, and that doesn’t mean that God isn’t in control or that the kingdom isn’t here or that it’s not coming fully.

But we can see that God is at work, uh, kind of pulls back the curtains to see that God is at work now and in the future in these very things. And I think this is so important because, um, on the one hand, it prevents us from seeing, uh, this kind of apocalyptic vision as an escape.

Like we’re not supposed to, like, predict the time Jesus said he couldn’t predict the time and to think, okay, I think this is coming. I’m gonna now, you know, get all these cans of soup and hide in my bunker. No, um, you know, we’re supposed to continue in this suffering faithful witness, uh, that, that Jesus showed us in his followers, but also so it’s not escape, you know, that is the, that is a solution. 

The other thing I think, I think Mark’s vision gives, I mean, I don’t wanna get into, I’m not trying to identify myself with any political party or anything like that, but I do worry, um, really across the spectrum that, uh, we often try to ease our fears by tying the church’s future or our, our situation, uh, in life to something other than, uh, what God is, is doing. Uh, I think neither Jesus nor the New Testament ever suggests that, uh, that government or the state is the solution to our personal anxieties or our church anxieties. The kingdom doesn’t come by winning elections or securing influence.

It comes by taking up the cross. Um, and so I worry that we’ve, and I’m not saying, I mean, I think Christians should be involved in, in politics. Mm-hmm. I think that’s important and in movements of justice and however you would see that. But we, the way of Jesus isn’t about conquering the world.

It’s about wearing, bearing witness in the world, even when it’s costly. And I think that’s what an apocalyptic imagination supports and helps us to see that when it’s difficult, when we have no thanks when we’re suffering, this is the mustard seed, right, that is being planted, that Jesus has already planted, that Jesus is working through to, uh, to bring, um, to bring Him.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Elizabeth, that, that’s a great way to end. It’s almost a benediction, you know? ‘Cause I, I, I mean, many people are anxious right now. You know, I, I succumb to that as well, and I think to be reminded of the big apocalyptic picture. Yeah. I mean, that’s the Christian way. 

Elizabeth: Hope is what it’s, yeah.

Pete: Yeah. It’s, it’s a hope beyond when things don’t always feel hopeful for many people. That’s right. And that’s not just pie in the sky. That’s, that’s, that’s a, that’s a courageous, I think, statement of faith. That hopefully keeps us from getting too discouraged when things happen.

Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t move for action and things like that. No, like you said, right. But it’s absolutely, it’s still not confusing. The, the, the answer with actually part of the problem, which is aligning with political regimes and things like that, right? Well, Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here.

That was, this was fun. We could, I could talk another hour with you at least about this stuff and I’ve learned a lot. 

Elizabeth: I love this Gospel. 

Pete: Yeah, and I think a lot of people are, are, are really gonna resonate with this too. A lot of powerful things were said. So thanks for being here. 

Elizabeth: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

This was great. 

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