Episode 296: Richard Rohr – Seeing Through the Eyes of the Prophets

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Well, welcome everyone. We have a special episode today. We’re gleaning some insights about the prophets and their relevance for today with none other than Richard Rohr.

We’re so glad to have him back on the podcast for the first time since 2019, Richard Rohr is a man who probably doesn’t need much of an introduction. He’s a globally recognized Franciscan Friar, ecumenical teacher, whose work bears witness to the deep wisdom of Christian mysticism, which you’ll hear through and through in the episode today.

Pete: And he is the founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque, New Mexico, an educational nonprofit dedicated to introducing seekers to the contemplative Christian path of transformation. He’s also the author of numerous books, including The New York Times bestseller The Universal Christ, and the brand new book, The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage, which is the topic of our conversation today. Let’s get into it. 

Richard: We made them foretellers of Jesus to individuals. And that just ruined their whole impact, in my opinion. Power and money and war are what they mainly aim their arrows at. This is corrupting culture. Once I tell you that, I don’t even need to prove it. You just opened the prophets and there it is.

Pete: Uh, Richard, welcome back to the podcast. This is the third time. 

Jared: Yeah, it is a wonderful treat. 

Richard: Is it? The third, is it?

Pete: No, it’s, it’s wonderful. And I’ve had, uh, conversations with students who have listened to the previous episodes and gotten a lot out of them. So that’s, uh, it’s great to have you back to talk about a great topic, the prophets. And, you know, a misunderstood group of people, I think, by many. 

Richard: Very, very.

Pete: I mean, sometimes it’s thought of like, just like predictors of the future or something like that. 

Richard: Mm-hmm. But that ruined the whole message. 

Pete: Right. So, so what, what is a biblical prophet? 

Jared: Yeah, exactly. Set us straight, Richard. Set us straight. 

Pete:What, what is a biblical prophet? What do they do?

Richard: Well, the definition I, I found most helpful was from the native- bishop, is he? Steven Charleston, yeah. Who says they’re an early warning system to culture. That’s my restatement of it. Because they’re, as you know from the book, they are addressing culture, the collective. We made them foretellers of Jesus to individuals, sort of, and that just ruined their whole impact, in my opinion.

Pete: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jared: So can you say more about that? Like, what are they warning, how are they warning systems to the culture? Like what, what are, what does that mean? 

Richard: Let me give an example. I’m not trying to be political, but it brings it home. He would not bother to criticize our president today. He or she would criticize the culture that can elect such a president.

Pete: Yeah. 

Richard: Right. That’s very different. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: And once you get that straight, they begin to have a much greater impact. 

Pete: Not to jump too far ahead, but maybe the, the, the prophets are giving a vision for what it could look like.

Richard: What Jesus will call, you know, the, the reign of God. Which again, is a collective vision. The real opponents are not sex. I’m not trying to legitimate all sexual activity. That’s not the point. But power and money and war are what they mainly aim their, their arrows at. This is corrupting culture. Once I tell you that, I don’t even need to prove it. You just open the prophets and there it is. And I should add to that just as strongly: phony religion. They’re very hard on religion. 

Pete: Right, right. Yeah. The um, covenant fidelity to the worship of God. That’s a big thing. 

Richard: That’s right. That’s right. 

Pete: And also, um, the money and power thing that you bring up. Which is, uh, justice and fairness and righteousness and, uh- 

Richard: There you go.

Pete: Yeah. You’re, you’re mentioning how the early warning system, there’s, there’s other language that I’ve heard that really complements what you’re saying. This is from, it’s from Victor Matthews, who is a Hebrew Bible scholar who wrote a book, um, the Social World of the Hebrew Prophets. He says they’re crisis managers.

There’s a crisis happening in the nation. There’s a crisis-

Richard: Crisis creators too. Yeah, that’s exactly, 

Pete: Yeah, that’s exactly- they do. Yeah. So they’re, they’re after, they’re, they’re trying to, there’s a problem that has to be fixed right in front of us. Right? Not, not, not predicting something that might happen 700 years-

Richard: Very good. That’s the clarification. Yeah. 

Jared: Well, can you, Richard, I’m, I’m very curious. It, you know, when you, when you talk about and write about the prophetic tradition, you- right off the bat you talk about grief and sadness as a part of this prophetic tradition and process.

Can you say more about that? Because I thought that’s a really powerful concept around, you know, the tears of things and the sadness of things. Like when we’re talking about the moment and the crisis and the, the challenges and money, power, war, false religion, and how does that tie to the idea of, of the tears of things and, and grief?

Richard: I think I mentioned this in the book. This is what brought the message home for me. For years, I taught these male initiation rites up here at Ghost Ranch, and one of the most impactful single lines was on the third day, which was called “The Day of Grief,” and I’d say to a room full of men, many of whom had father issues or authority issues: “many of you think your father was an angry man. And maybe he was. But let me tell you something. I’d be willing to bet he’s more sad than angry. He doesn’t know it. And maybe you think you are an angry man, but you’re actually more sad than angry.”

It stopped the screen. It’s just the retreat pivoted around that statement. These men were vulnerable beyond belief. And now a lot had built up to their readiness to hear that. 

Jared: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Richard: But then when I taught the prophets here at our living school, uh, I said, “well, my God, where did I learn that from? These guys and gals?” But they don’t start there. As you know, in the book, they do start angry. When I saw in that a, uh, parallel to, to most of us today, uh, so much of America is so angry. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: And, and I don’t wanna tell ’em they can’t be, they shouldn’t be. Uh, but don’t stay there. Be careful. It’ll have you. Uh, and then there I saw it when I began to literally highlight the prophets and see, they started angry and they ended sad.

Pete: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Richard: Yeah. And that’s not even hard to prove. It becomes most explicit in Jeremiah where it becomes, uh, a whole book that we call Lamentations. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Richard: It’s not about any individual sad war or sad, uh, you know. Destitution. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: It’s about universal sadness. 

Pete: Yeah. 

Richard: And that gave me the, the title for the book from my Latin studies.

Pete: You know, there’s anger, which, then the sadness surfaces, right?  

Richard: Yeah.

Pete: But there’s another, it goes past that too. Sometimes the prophets, you know, Amos ends on a very positive note. It’s, it’s, he’s a very angry prophet, but he ends on a positive note about the restoration of Judah and Israel through-

Richard: Well, most of them do.

Pete: Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, 

Richard: Well, I didn’t finish the, yeah. They move into sadness and out of that realm of sadness, what we hear, praise, we hear doxology, gratitude, uh, compassion. And sadness seems to be the, the nesting area where they can feel those more evolved emotions. If I can call them that.

Pete: Well, I’m just, as I’m hearing you, Richard, I mean, do you have, I hope you don’t mind this question. Do you have a favorite prophet when you think of a biblical prophet, does any one of them come to mind immediately? 

Richard: I think overall is Jeremiah. He is the predecessor of Jesus more than any single prophet.

Pete: Hmm. How was that? How was that? 

Richard: Well, just that he, he grows into his, his maturity. You, you see him go through stages. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: And I think we have to allow Jesus to go through stages. Before he becomes a full prophet that he is. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: We hear him in his early stages. Uh, Matthew 23, perhaps or so forth. But you gotta start there.

In terms of our teaching here of contemplation, I tell the students you have to start with dualistic thinking, but then it has to fail you. And see it isn’t a good final explanation. And dualistic thinking has to evolve into non-dual mystical thinking where you stop creating total enemies and total victories without denying the, the character of evil.

So the, the, the anger has to be made explicit in Jesus and the prophets. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: There’s a lot that deserves anger as we know today, but just don’t get caught up in it, or it defeats it, it possesses your, your ego. Yeah. 

Jared: Well, can you, can you say more about that process? Because like you said, I think a lot of people are in an angry place, and, and they feel justified in it. And we might say it is justified. 

But then when you say don’t stay there, it almost feels like it delegitimizes it. So can you just say a little bit more about what happens if we don’t move on? And maybe also what are the tools to move on in a way that feels authentic, that we’re not just saying get over it, but there’s a, there’s a process of-

Richard: Yeah.

Jared: So can you say more about that process? 

Richard: I think you have to have the first one to have a legitimacy to the second. In other words, you have to recognize there are things that deserve anger. And you do not do well to take that away from people. So many of the most effective social activists of our time were known for their anger. But their best writings that are persisting in time are filled with compassion and hope. 

Jared: Mm. Mm-hmm. 

Richard: One is a father of the other, it seems. And this came as a surprise to me too. But I, I’m finding out in just the weeks since the book has been out, just telling people that, they start seeing it. It’s not a hard sell. It really isn’t a hard sell at all.

Jared: Seeing that, that, that process where we allow, in some ways it’s sort of like, I, I kind of think of the anger is also an energy. And it, and it’s sort of how, how are we going to use that energy? Is it going to propel us toward that sadness, which then can be a, a redeeming sadness? Or are we gonna use it to perpetuate the anger?

Richard: Too much anger is self-serving of “my” worldview. “My” issues. “My” father issues, mother issues, authority issues. You gotta get beyond that “my” stuff to the great collective, “what is history facing?” And that’s where the prophets are concerned about the moving of history. Not the sins of individuals.

Pete: They’re, they’re confronting certain sins. Right? So, but they have, um, they’re not just private sins. They’re more, you know- 

Richard: Yeah. That’s a better way to say it. They’re not just private sins, they’re-

Pete: There’s people hoarding wealth, you know, like in Amos for example. This is the cows of Bashan, you know, as, as Amos- what a wonderful phrase that is.

Um, but it’s, it’s, it’s not just that I have wealth. It’s, that represents, um, that deeper societal, structural problem in Israel there in the late eighth century. 

Richard: You got it. Yeah. Intergenerational wealth. That has now become a way of life. That keeps certain people intergenerationally poor.

Pete: Yeah. 

Richard: So I can be intergenerationally rich, even the discovery of that word is significant. I hear it used more and more in trauma therapy.

Jared: Maybe you can say a couple more words about that, because you talked about the early warning subsystem to culture and, and I think, you know, I think it’s an important point to revisit that the prophetic witness isn’t there to tear down an individual. 

Like you talked about, it’s not about, it’s not about Trump in, in, in a political system or whoever the president is. That’s the figurehead of that. But it is aimed at the systemic cultural, uh, the environment, the context, all of the forces. You know, I kind of think of Paul’s language as the principalities and powers.

Can you tie that to the idea of, of non-dualistic thinking, because I think sometimes when we think of, of enemy, we think of individuals. But what I’m hearing you say is, is what if the enemy is our, the collective, uh, culture that we’ve created, that allows some to flourish while others languish? 

Richard: Yes.

Jared: Can you say more about that? Like the, the idea of a culture? I think that’s abstract for people, so maybe put some, uh, some bones to it. 

Richard: You know, uh, it was only in the Catholic world, uh, the last Pope who popularized the terms institutional evil and structural sin. Now they become a part of the Catholic vocabulary, but it’s changed, uh, well, you could almost say created the whole world of liberation theology.

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: As, as we began to recognize that what’s killing people is, let’s pick another one. The, the healthcare system, the drug culture. The way we structure a world so some people always win and some people always lose. 

Pete: Yeah, yeah, 

Richard: Uh, once you see that, it’s hard to unsee. And I think that’s why people don’t want us to see it.

As long as we critique the collective, not just the other, but we all are included. I’m benefiting, you know, even as a supposedly poor Franciscan, I’m benefiting from the medical world where I have, you know, I shouldn’t even be living all the cancers I’ve lived through, but I get my healthcare. And I’m grateful for it. But why is it that a lot of people can’t get this? Particularly in this country.

Pete: Yeah. You know, I think, Richard, just, uh, you’ve said this before, I just wanna repeat it because I, it’s, it’s given me a little of an epiphany here. It’s easy to, to rail against one particular politician 

Richard: Too easy. 

Pete: It’s very, very easy to do that. And in some respects, maybe not wholly unjustified. However, it’s- the real problem is the deeper structure that allows that to thrive. That’s, that’s deep. It’s- it didn’t just happen yesterday. It’s been going on for a very, very long time. And, uh, maybe since our founding as, as a nation.

Richard: That allows this politician to tell blatant lies to me and have people agree with it. Where did that bigger lie come from? 

Pete: Yes. Right. 

Richard: And that’s what I hear you saying. Yes. 

Pete: Yeah. That’s very helpful for me to think of it that way. 

Richard: It is for me too. Yes. Thank you.

Pete: And I, and I need to hear that, ’cause I don’t want to be bitter, you know. I need to hear that myself, that this is a much larger problem that I’m even a part of in a sense, like you’re saying. You know, we, we benefit, right?

Richard: Yes. The cultural evil implicates me, at least in part.

Pete: Well, that makes me uncomfortable, Richard. I don’t wanna talk about that. Uh oh. 

Richard: Yeah. 

Pete: Oh, this is over. 

Jared: I think there’s still this wrestling and, and for a little while I was, I was really struggling with the idea of, uh, a, a non-dual way of thinking while also working on how, how do you, how do you fight? 

And yet, I don’t even know if I’m comfortable with that verb. How do we work toward, collectively, causes that we feel are just, um, in a non-dual way? Like, I guess what part of what I’m asking too is, I’ve, I’ve seen people who use the idea that, hey, everything belongs, we’re all connected, we’re all part of the same thing.

And they use that to sort of justify or like, “hey, don’t come down so hard on. uh, these blatantly racist policies or things because everything has a place,” right? And so there’s really no more good or evil. It’s all the same. It all belongs in this, it, it feels a little bit like a misunderstanding of the idea, uh, of, you know, that we- we’re all part of one collective.

Um, so how do we avoid going in that direction? What, where’s, what’s the leg that we stand on to say things like, “hey, racism is evil and bad” when we’re trying to get away from a dualistic thinking of good and evil, if that makes sense?

Richard: You’ve named Jared one of the most common, uh, rather common mistakes of our own students. They’ll come back to me and say, “Richard, you’re still being dualistic.” And I have to look. Am I? 

It’s because non-dual thinking includes, but surpasses dualistic thinking. 

It doesn’t eliminate it. First, you have every right to clearheaded, logical, rational, cause-and-effect, or use whatever you want, but you can’t stay there. Here’s where the hesed mercy of God softens the subject.

And you see the same issue, but you’re not hardened by it anymore, but you don’t deny the issue. 

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: I’ve had people seriously leave me as a teacher and leave the school as a school because they disagree with me on that. They think they’ve discovered, you used the right phrase, “well, you, Richard, you said everything belongs.”

But they understood it in a very soft, unhelpful way. 

Pete: Yeah.

Jared: Yeah. So, oh, so then, and maybe just to take it one step further, ’cause I do think a lot of people maybe run that risk of becoming numb to the injustice, and they use that as an excuse for “everything belongs. I don’t have to really worry about that anymore.”

So how does that, how does that work in terms of, you’d mentioned the softness that not we, we don’t get rid of it, but we become soft toward it. We, we, it becomes way more nuanced and maybe it’s part of that we kind of see ourselves in it. It’s not an us-versus-them, but. How we’re all kind of participating in these systems as well, softens us and allows us to have compassion and empathy even toward the, quote, perpetrators of this injustice.

But can you say more about that? I don’t know if I’m even saying it in a helpful way. 

Richard: Well, let me try this. Feel free to come back. The beauty I see in Jesus is that he creates solidarity with that evil, that shadow side. The whole thing of eating with sinners. Living in solidarity with the rejected ones. He doesn’t stay on the side of purity. 

This is crucial. And what some people, without realizing it, usually “well, I found my way to stay on the side of purity. Everything belongs. I don’t get uptight about anything.” It’s a false innocence. I found myself in recent years saying what so much of Christianity became was a cult of innocence. “How can I prove that I’m not one of them? Well, how can I get rid of sin? Get rid of sin?” 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: What Jesus does is eat with sinners, solidarity with the broken situation. Sympathy with the broken situation. This is no small part of Jesus’s ministry. 

Pete: I agree with that. That flies against what some people are saying lately. And, and maybe you’ve seen this too, but how empathy is a sin, right? Have you heard this? You’ve seen? 

Richard: Yes, I have. 

Pete: They’re making their way around and, uh, you know, “woke Jesus is the weak one and we want the warrior Jesus.” And, um, that’s really not in line with his prophetic role, is it? 

Richard: No, it sure isn’t. Yeah. How is the mind able to contort itself to make black, white, white, black, however you wanna say it?

Jared: But I think it does it, it does, you know, maybe beg the question of how do those interact? Because I do think for a lot of people this, there’s the idea that if we have, if we have empathy, um, and we have solidarity, then, we’re not distinct from that, right? 

So if Jesus is eating with sinners, or, again, for me, if I have compassion toward my political enemies, somehow I, I’ve, and maybe this is what you mean by purity. It’s somehow like I’ve become tainted with, or I’ve become dirtied by, because I have compassion and empathy toward.

Maybe that’s the, the way forward is to have a more nuanced view of empathy. So it is not, I’m, I’m now tainted by the thing I have empathy toward or compassion for. Um, because I, I, is that making sense? Like I think there’s maybe a- 

Richard: I think so 

Jared: -a distinction. 

Richard: Jesus shows no interest in, uh, purity codes.

Trying to prove that he’s worthy or among the worthy, or the worthy group, because once you get into that dualistic thinking, you’re dead in the water. It becomes a lifelong search for why your group is pure. 

Jared: Right. Well that’s, that seems very relevant for right now in terms of, I feel like rather than problem solving on behalf of- 

Richard: Yes.

Jared: -of the people in our country, we’re just doing a lot of that, which is, I’m just sort of trying to show how “my group is better than your group.” Somehow that’s supposed to fix problems, if we just all agree which group is better, which seems like nonsense to me.

Richard: Which is probably never gonna happen, isn’t it?

Pete: Well, I mean, that happens on both sides too, I think, because, um, you know, I, I hear again, a lot of talk, and rightly so, about the need of a prophetic critique of, of what’s happening. But I think sometimes that’s, that’s understood as drawing those harsh lines, those dualistic lines between people. Yeah. And, um, and sometimes the prophets do seem to talk like that, but still, collectively.

Richard: They do.

Pete: Lemme look at Jesus. It’s like, okay, but maybe we, we, we shouldn’t be doing that. Maybe there’s a different kind of prophetic critique, which is to lift the veil behind what appears to be the case, to see the deeper problem, the, the deeper roots of this, um, that, that people might not be willing to talk about, ’cause then everybody gets implicated in some way. 

Richard: That’s well said. In, in the Catholic world, what I saw happen after Vatican II in the 1960s was many Catholics confused being a prophet with being a liberal. A political liberal that has dominated the scene for 40 years.

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: And it, it doesn’t get us there.

It doesn’t work because the liberal is not necessarily listening, as the prophet would say, to the word of the Lord. He’s listening to his own temperamental preferences.

Pete: Right, right. Well, when I was in seminary, um, I remember professors railing against the social gospel, you know, and its origins, I guess. In the 19th century or something like that. But that’s the same thing. I think that you’re saying that it’s, sure, you know, well, shouldn’t it be social?

What, why is that liberal and bad to have, you know, a prophetic voice speaking into, uh, the only existence we understand, which is our own cultural moment. That has to speak to that, right? 

Richard: You’ve got it. Yeah. What the prophet is always saying is, your love is not yet God’s love. 

That sounds oversimplified, but it isn’t.

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: Israel, you do not yet love the way Yahweh loves you, and that just blows away. They don’t know how to love. As I don’t, either. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: We need to be confronted with that, uh, to know that our love is so petty, partial, uh, exclusionary. Choiceful. 

Jared: Yeah. And, and I, I thought, you know, when you were talking Pete, I was thinking too of, again, that prophetic tradition is one that is a critique of the, of the group.

It is, it is a critique of us. It is not a critique of you. Or them. But is it a critique of us? We are not doing what we just, you know, Richard, you just modeled that well to say “even I don’t love the way God loves me,” and I think that the, “even I” is part of that prophetic tradition. 

Like where is the internal, where’s the internal feedback loop that critiques even us, whatever us it is? That for me, feels more prophetic. It’s easy to use prophetic anger and language to draw those lines harder. It’s a little more difficult to say, “well, let’s look around us, aren’t we kind of messing it up too?”

Richard: Sure. Even I say, and I thought, after I wrote the book. Too much, the prophetic voice is always self-critical first. Self-critical. 

Pete: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. And um, I, I mean, maybe we can see that maybe indirectly in, you know, like the call narratives of some of the prophets, right? Like, “go speak for me.” I don’t know if I should be doing that. That doesn’t, I mean, I’m not worthy. Does Moses? The first prophet Moses has that reaction. 

Jared: There’s a reticence to take on that authority.

Pete: Exactly. Right. Because, you know, maybe, you know, you’re just not worthy. Jeremiah had the same thing and a couple other prophets, so.. Um, I, I like that. It’s, it’s the, the internal critique.

It’s taking the, um, the beam out of your own eye in a sense. And before you look at the others, and I, I, I have no doubt the prophets were well aware of their own psyche and their own strengths and weaknesses. 

Richard: They had to be. In their mature state. 

Pete: Right. Maybe their own temperamentalism at times, you know, and, um, yeah.

Richard: Yes.

Jared: So what are some, you know, we have the, we have the biblical prophets and, and we’ve talked about them some here and we’ve talked about, um, in some ways how they’re relevant. But could we maybe even go a little bit more practical and say, how does this, looking at the prophetic way of being in the world, how, how might that look to people in our current context? How, how do they go from, these are great lessons in the abstract, to, here are some very practical ways that we can engender a positive prophetic culture within our tribes and within our groups. How do we do that? 

Richard: Once you include self criticism, you’re much closer to compassion because we all have compassion for ourself. We understand. We do everything for mixed motives. Where Johnny come lately to the issue, whatever it might be.

A whole bunch of truth lies behind self-criticism, but not negative self-criticism or nasty self-criticism, but just honest. 

Honest self-evaluation. And of course what’s happened is when Jewish religion and Christian religion themselves don’t practice critical thinking. How can we expect it of the institutions of government or state or education?

Pete: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: Uh, we have to model it. This is why I say- I hope this doesn’t sound pessimistic, but I really do think we’re still in early Christianity. I, I think the fact that you and I are saying this in 2025 and seeing how apparent it is that we can’t see our shadow side. 

We can’t see it at all.

Uh, means we got a long way to go before we know how to eat in loving solidarity. With sinners. 

Pete: Right. 

Richard: And know that we’re one of them.

Pete: Richard, could you, uh, I mean for those who might not be familiar with the term, could you just explain “shadow self?”

Richard: Sure. You know, the term was popularized by the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung, and by shadow self, he didn’t mean the evil self, except insofar as it’s the evil that you cannot see. You choose not to see. You dare not see. 

It’s too shameful. It’s too humiliating. So there’s, uh, and that’s a great moment of enlightenment for in so many novels, so many good movies, where you’ll have the protagonist finally recognize what he or she has been unwilling to see. The discovery of the shadow. So shadow isn’t evil per se.

It’s just that we’re able to do great evil without calling it evil when we’re in the grip of our shadow. It usually has to do with things we’re ashamed of, or fear we can be mocked for, or made fun of, or eliminated from the group for, it’s just, it’s just too scary to admit it. So we don’t. And God must understand that after this many centuries of humanity, it’s just not our strong point.

And that’s why we have in our Christian faith, words like “repentance” or “doing penance” and why I, and a lot of my teachings have perhaps overemphasized suffering and failure and falling as crucial to the spiritual journey. You don’t get there by climbing. Climbing normally means you eliminate more shadow, more shadow, you deny more shadow. It’s, it comes through falling. 

Jared: And, and it seems like part of that, and this is getting us a little bit off of the, the prophetic path. It seems like, maybe not, because it’s a self-criticism idea, but it, it seems to me that, you know, the, the, the research suggests that at the root of the ability to look at those shameful parts is a, a radical self-acceptance.

The belief that “if I’m found out for the same shameful things, I won’t be rejected.” And I have to be able to trust that, or I won’t ever look at the self because it’s too painful. The idea to be excluded, 

Richard: Excluded from the group, from the family, from my peers, from my religion, my nation state. No one wants to be excommunicated. 

Jared: It’s a reinforcing cycle. When we don’t have that self, whenever we’re not willing to extend a sense of belonging and compassion to the other, it just reinforces the idea that if, if you’re gonna reject me, even though I’m holding all of this back, all my shadow side hasn’t even been fully laid bare at this point, and you’re already excluding me. For me to bring that in, it just is such a tall order that I think people are gonna have a really hard time coming to this place of self-evaluation. 

Richard: Well-put, well-put.

Jared: So that, because what I hear you saying is there’s also this call that, that for me is the, the, the very positive idea of everything belongs. That we, we all belong to each other. And when we can see that, when we don’t fear exclusion, that’s exactly the thing that can ignite this self-evaluation that then can lead to more compassion. 

We get to be a space where others can belong once we have experienced that ourselves and allow that to transform us. Is that a fair way? 

Richard: Beautiful. Once people know our faults and can still say, I love you. That’s what transforms. 

And supremely so when it’s God. When God knows our shadow side and says, as He does, She does, to Israel, “I have committed myself to you and I will not withdraw my commitment.”

Jared: Mm-hmm. 

Richard: Yep. Yeah.

Jared: And I think that’s an important point. And I, I say this coming from a very personal place of someone, like you said, for me, I spent my life climbing.

Because I didn’t wanna fail. 

Richard: Sure, of course. 

Jared: ‘Cause I was afraid if I failed, I would be rejected. But what actually taught me the lesson was to fail and be accepted. And that was a profound truth. 

Richard: And if you don’t have some people around you, like a good wife or a good friend who accepts you anyway. It’s so hard to teach. So hard.

Pete: So, so not by climbing, but falling. Falling upward. I think someone, someone should write a book, uh, about that title. No 

Richard: Someone should. 

Pete: I’m gonna do that. 

Jared: Yeah, yeah, yeah.You might run into some trademark issues.

I don’t know, maybe.

Pete: Oh my. Yeah. 

Jared: Okay. So, you know, as we, as we, you know, wrap up our time here, can you say maybe a, give us a benediction, Richard, a final word here around the call, um, of the tears of things? You know, kind of what’s, what’s the path before us in terms of what this might look like as people of faith trying to extend, uh, these truths and this compassion into the world.

How, how do we do that? Give us a final word here. 

Richard: The myth of almost every culture in different forms is what I call in the book, the reward-punishment system. The win-lose system. And it’s reinforced in sports, it’s reinforced in business, it is just reinforced everywhere. So there’s no reason to believe that it’s not ontological truth.

Goodness deserves reward. And because most of us were raised with that version of Christianity, uh, that’s why I end with, uh, the story of the angel. If you made it to the end of the book. Uh, the reward-punishment system has to fall apart. And when we recognize that goodness is its own reward, evil is its own punishment. 

What Jeremiah has called the law is now written in your heart. It’s not outside you. It’s inside of you, and it’s its own reward. That’s a mature human being. Psychologically speaking, they can’t be bought off by power and money and fear. They, they have this ability to, to, uh, operate without fear of punishment or desire for reward.

We have to defeat the reward punishment system. It is so deep in the Western psyche. It’s certainly gonna outlast your and my lifetime. Because how do you undo that?

Pete: Right. 

Richard: Well, we’ve gotta peck away at it and say, you know, here’s the only answer. That’s not the way God loves. If I’m to believe Ezekiel and Jeremiah and Amos and Jesus. The great gift for me as a Christian was, the prophets became a great big wide boulevard by which to walk and finally comprehend Jesus.

You know, we were so eager to prove He was the son of God, which my Christian faith, I believe that, but don’t start there. 

Uh, start by letting him speak in the character of a prophet, a truth speaker, an infinite lover, who then you say, “oh, that must be the nature of God.”

Pete: Well, Richard, thank you so much for this is, this is wonderful, and your book’s beautiful and we deeply appreciate the time you’ve taken to be with us, uh, today and, and record this interview.

Richard: Thank you for wanting me. It’s a delight. God bless you. 

Jared: Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you wanna support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just wanna give a little money, go to thebiblefornormalpeople.com/give. 

Pete: And if you wanna support us and want an all-access pass to our classes, classes, ad- free livestream of the podcast, and a thoughtful community of people asking tough questions about the Bible and faith, you can become a member of our online community, the Society of Normal People at thebiblefornormalpeople.com/join. 

Jared: And lastly, it goes a long way. If you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show.

In addition, you can let us know what you thought about the episode by emailing us at info@thebiblefornormalpeople.com 

Outro: You’ve just made it through another episode of The Bible for Normal People. Don’t forget, you can catch our other show, Faith for Normal People in the same feed wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for normal people team: Brittany Hodge, Stephen Henning, Joel Limbauan, Savannah Locke, Melissa Yandow, Tessa Stultz, Danny Wong, Lauren O’Connell, and Naiomi Gonzalez.