Episode 293: Beth Allison Barr & Savannah Locke - The Women Filed Away by the Southern Baptist Convention
In this episode of The Bible for Normal People, Pete and Jared talk to Beth Allison Barr and Savannah Locke, the creators of our brand new mini-series All the Buried Women, about their journey uncovering the hidden history of women in the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) through archival research for Beth’s new book Becoming the Pastor’s Wife. Together they offer a picture of hope for change through truth-telling and historical accountability. Join them as they explore the following questions:
What is All The Buried Women about and how did it start?
What role did the SBC archives play in the investigation?
How is the podcast connected to Beth Allison Barr’s new book Becoming the Pastor’s Wife?
What is complementarian theology?
What is the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), and why is it significant? How has the SBC influenced American politics and culture?
What was the Conservative Resurgence, and why did it happen?
How did SBC leaders justify their opposition to women in ministry?
Why did some churches and individuals stay in the SBC despite its shift toward fundamentalism?
How did the SBC’s governance shift toward authoritarianism over time?
How do survivors of abuse and exclusion within the SBC find healing and hope?
What impact does storytelling and uncovering hidden history have on justice and change?
Is All The Buried Women meant to be a takedown of the SBC?
What do the hosts hope listeners will take away from the series?
Quotables
Pithy, shareable, sometimes-less-than-280-character statements from the episode you can share.
“[Becoming the Pastor’s Wife] is telling the story of what happened to women's ordination, and how it connects specifically to the rise of complementarian theology that is really personified through the rise of the pastor's wife.” — Beth Allison Barr
“[Complementarianism] is a theology that teaches God ordained men to lead and women to follow. And in some ways, the pastor's wife is this woman who works to support the ministry of her husband in an unpaid role behind the scenes. And this is pretty much what complementarian theology teaches: women's primary position is to center their lives on their husbands.” — Beth Allison Barr
“Within the Southern Baptist Convention, three men end up getting together in the mid to late 70s and deciding [they] don't like the direction that the Southern Baptist Convention is headed in because it's becoming too liberal. And they would say that it was too liberal because they weren't taking the Bible literally. The other issue, which was kind of under the radar but still very prevalent, was this issue of women's ordination. Because during the feminist movements, women started doing a bunch of things that they weren't supposed to do. And so these men get together in the 70s and [say] ‘We've got to put an end to it.’ And that movement that they started ended up being known as the conservative resurgence.” — Savannah Locke
“One of the basic tenets of Baptist belief that has been there since the very emergence of Baptists in the 17th century is this idea of local autonomy, as well as soul competency, which is that we are individually responsible before God for the choices that we make. And in the same way, churches are individually responsible and able to make their own choices without a governing body over them. And so this is why we consider [the SBC] to be a convention, an association, because churches have the ability to choose their own pastors, whether they're going to be reformed or not be reformed, etc.” — Beth Allison Barr
“There's actually a lot of theological diversity, historically, within the Baptist tradition. And with the rise of the conservative resurgence, that big-tent Baptist [inclusion] and that emphasis on local autonomy begin to be eroded. It really did begin to move more toward a denomination and the sense that if you want to associate with us, then you have to fall in line on these particular measures—which focused on inerrancy and, at the beginning, women's ordination.” — Beth Allison Barr
“A lot of people did leave when this conservative resurgence was happening. Particularly women, they left in droves. And there is actually a missing generation gap, particularly of boomer [generation] women, who aren't in the SBC anymore because they had to go find solace in other denominations.” — Savannah Locke
“Barry Hankins wrote a book called Uneasy in Babylon, which tells exactly what happened to the Southern Baptist Convention when it married into the culture wars. And today what we are witnessing right now in the Trump White House is a product of those culture wars.” — Beth Allison Barr
“I argue that the SBC is a major contributor to the evolution of this pastor's wife role, in which the pastor's wife is emblematic of what women are supposed to be in the Southern Baptist world. And that is supporting the ministry, the jobs of their husbands and focusing their life on their home, the children, but also this supportive role to do whatever is needed to help their husband and by extension, the church.” — Beth Allison Barr
“The pastor's wife role is something that women themselves question and have problems with. First of all, the pastor's wife role is not a biblical role. We don't find this model in the Bible. We also really don't find this model in history until after the Reformation, and we do not find it where women who are married to pastors are required to serve alongside them in this type of job until we get into the 20th century. In general, the way we see the pastor's wife role today is very much a product of conservative theology.” — Beth Allison Barr
“The truth deserves to be told. If anyone has been paying attention, a lot of this won't probably feel brand new or shocking. There are stories that we tell that are new and haven't been told before, but if you're paying attention, women are leaving the SBC in droves and women are leaving the church in general in droves. And I actually think this podcast names part of the reasons why that is. I think that as we can keep on naming the truth, hopefully it will be brought to light and we can start to do better. ” — Savannah Locke
“As a woman who has lived in these spaces—I grew up in the SBC, I've been a pastor's wife for 27 years now—I hope that women who are in similar situations can hear the story. And that maybe it can provide them some hope, some thoughts that this is not how it should be. And also that there are other women who have experienced this. One of the people who I interviewed said to me: ‘May this provide correction for some and healing for others.’ And that's my prayer.” — Beth Allison Barr
Mentioned in This Episode
Class: March class “Digging Up Dirt on Joshua” with Dr. Cynthia Shafer-Elliott
Books:
Becoming the Pastor’s Wife by Beth Allison Barr
Uneasy in Babylon by Barry Hankins
Join: The Society of Normal People community
Support: www.thebiblefornormalpeople.com/give
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Pete: You're listening to the Bible for normal people, the only God-ordained podcast on the internet. I'm Pete Enns.
Jared: I'm Jared Byas.
[Intro music begins]
Jared: We're here to tell you that the first book in our Themes of the Bible series, not books of the Bible,
Pete: Right. We’re branching out.
Jared: We're branching out, Themes of the Bible series, Violence in the Bible For Normal People, A Guide To Biblical Texts of Terror is now available to buy wherever you get your books.
Pete: Written by Caroline Blyth, biblical scholar and host of the Bloody Bible podcast, this book is both accessible and engaging while dealing with one of the heaviest themes within the Bible.
Jared: She draws on her lifelong love of true crime and mystery novels and tackles the sensitive subject with some intriguing case studies to unpack the ways in which these biblical examples of violence continue to resonate today.
Pete: Start reading the first chapter today while you wait for your copy to arrive by going to thebiblefornormalpeople.com/violencebook.
Pete: Hey everybody, welcome to a very special episode of the Bible for Normal People. Today, we are talking with Beth Allison Barr and Savannah Locke about a five part miniseries hosted here on our channel called All The Buried Women.
Jared: And if you're used to The Bible For Normal People, no worries. It's very much not like this. It's compelling storytelling, deep look into the Southern Baptist convention. Savannah and Beth have done their homework.
Pete: Yeah. I mean, really, they dug into archives for a very long time and they, they found things that, I mean, I have to say, Jared, I think I speak for you too, surprised us, but also like shocked and almost unnerved us. And we're not overstating this is, this is a serious piece of journalism, I think. To address something that is a matter of justice, a matter of righteousness, and I don't want to sound like some prophet, but that's how I feel. This is a very important thing that was been done and we're very honored to be a part of it and to have Beth and Savannah on our podcast
Jared: So we highly highly recommend you check it out when it comes out this week and the best news, to check it out you just have to listen to this feed. It's gonna come right to your podcast player, start episode one. And if you're like us. You won't be able to stop,
Pete: but if you can't wait for now, you can get a sneak peek of All The Buried Women at the end of this episode .
Jared: And just a small content warning for this episode. We do bring up sexual abuse in the episode, so just wanted you to know that. All right, let's get into the episode.
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Beth: As a woman who has lived in these spaces, I grew up SBC. I've been a pastor's wife for, you know, what, 27 years now. I hope that women who are in similar situations can hear the story and that maybe it can provide them some hope, some thoughts that this is not how it should be made. May this provide correction for some and healing for others.
[Teaser music ends]
Jared: Well, Beth and Savannah, welcome to the podcast. It's wonderful to have you.
Beth: It's so good to be here. Thank you.
Jared: Well, you guys are the brains and the brawn and everything behind All The Buried Women. And so that's what we're here to talk about. But first let's set up a little bit of the, of the history. How did we get here? How did this podcast come about?
Give us some of the details about the background and context and history here.
Savannah: Yeah. Um, a couple of years ago, Jared, who used to be my boss, but then I left Bible for Normal People on Friday of last week. Um, Jared used to be my boss and he was sensing that I was getting really bored at work. And honestly, Jared, from what I remember, you literally were like, go find a passion project and I'll help you do it.
And I thought to myself, okay, and I just kind of kept it in the back of my mind. And then Beth was the season premiere episode of the following season of Bible for Normal People. And when I was searching Beth's Twitter account, uh, for quotes and stuff that we could use to advertise the podcast and her, uh, maybe her book or something that was coming out, I, uh, noticed that she had posted a picture from the Southern Baptist Archives and the picture was of this letter that a little girl had written to the Southern Baptist Convention basically saying, “Like, why don't you let girls preach? Like, what if God calls me to preach? Can I do it?” And it was just this handwritten letter. And as soon as I saw this archive, I was like, I need to know what else is in there and then I reached out to Beth.
Beth: And I was, um, teaching in England, actually, at the time. And I get this email from Savannah saying, “Hey, will you talk with me?”
So I actually, uh, zoomed with her. I did. We zoom, I think we zoomed from the, um, dorm room at Imperial College in London. Um, and Savannah presented this idea, possibility, for us to work on together.
Jared: So Beth, the, the podcast is also connected to a book that you've been writing and is coming out. So can you say a little bit more about the book and how it ties to this and, and just your background within a Baptist context, because that's what we're going to kind of zero in on as we talk more about this.
Beth: Oh, sure. So, um, the book is Becoming the Pastor's Wife: How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry. And it is a companion to The Making of Biblical Womanhood. Um, and I was in the Southern Baptist archives in Nashville researching the pastor's wife. There's a whole collection on the pastor's wives there and as I was researching that, I also started looking into–they have some files there that are on women's ordination, like the study of women's ordination, etc.
And so I had asked for those folders, too. And as I was going through those folders, it was really just sort of a spur of the moment, was when I took pictures of some of these and one of these was the post, this little girl's letter that she had written in. Um, so the book itself is telling the story of what happened to women's ordination. And then how it connects specifically to the rise of complementarian theology, that is really, um, the personified through the rise of the pastor's wife.
Jared: Can you say what complementarian[ism] is? That would maybe be a phrase people listening maybe don't don't know.
Beth: Yes, in a nutshell, it is a theology that teaches God ordained men to lead and women to follow. And in some ways, the pastor's wife role is this woman who works to support the ministry of her husband, um, in an unpaid role behind the scenes. And this is pretty much what complementarian theology, um, teaches about women's primary position is to center their lives on their husbands. Um, so this is the book that I was researching at the very beginning stage when Savannah saw one of my tweets.
Pete: Well, and before we get into maybe some of the specifics of the podcast itself, um, I've never been to this Southern Baptist Convention archive. How big is this? I mean, is it rooms? Is it floors? Is it hundreds, thousands of boxes? I mean, what, what did you guys get into in this, this journalistic investigation that you did?
Beth: So Savannah, do you want to describe it since you went for the very first time with me there?
Savannah: So this building is just sitting in downtown Nashville. And you, like, go, you sign it, it's very, like, top secret, but the odd thing is, the building's basically empty. So, like, you walk in and it's all very official, and you see these, like, pictures on the wall, like, I saw pictures of, like, Al Mohler, and all of these, like, very big Southern Baptist names on the wall.
But, like, no one was there. So then you get in this elevator and you go up to like the third or the fourth floor, and then the archives are this entire floor of yes, like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of boxes, but you don't have direct access to the boxes. So this is where it gets tricky. You have to go on their, like, website online and search by subject, and then it's all organized where then you request certain boxes.
And then they bring out literal banker’s boxes, and I thought they would be like organized, labeled, et cetera, and in some ways they are, but in other ways, it's literally just thousands of documents and your job is just to go through them piece by piece until you find something good.
Pete: And I can't imagine that, I wouldn’t have the patience.
Beth: Oh, it's, it's amazing. The, um, and the Southern Baptist archives are actually extremely well organized, um, but some of the collections that Savannah and I were looking at are what are called unprocessed. And so they have, there's no organized, I mean, literally they're just boxes of stuff. Um, and so this is a lot of what we were looking through. Um, so yeah—
Jared: And not to nerd out on, on the process itself, but how–when, when I was listening to the podcast, I kept thinking, how did these make it into the archives? Because some of it—
Pete: Yeah.
Jared: Is a little bit disparaging or damning.
Pete: Damning, yeah.
Jared: And it's like, how did that end up in this box that got saved?
Pete: No one's gonna read this. Just throw it in there. Right?
Jared: Yeah. That's what–you would think people would try to actively keep some of this stuff out. So how did things get into the archive?
Beth: Okay, so let me, let me say a little bit about that. So first of all, I wanna say thank you to Taffy Hall, who is the Southern Baptist archivist because she is amazing and even working with somebody like me, um, I imagine is challenging in the Southern Baptist Archives, and so I'm so grateful for her, um.
But what she's in charge of, you know, you can think about the Southern Baptist Convention leaders, um, for years, for decades, um, they, at, you know, the end of their term, they leave all of their letters, their correspondence, their email, everything that connects to their term as SBC President or whatever position they hold, they will leave those to the archive.
Um, also like all of the auxiliary organizations, like, um, like the Pastor's Wife Conference that we looked at, they would send all of their notebooks and all of their information to the archives. Um, so really people don't know what's in all of this stuff. I mean, just imagine if you're the SBC President, you've served two years.
Um, you, I mean. Your correspondence is just incredible what you have and–and I imagine over time people may forget what actually is in all of those letters that they wrote. Um, also, I think a lot of these men who were involved in the conservative resurgence, which is the conservative takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention that started in the late seventies. And when Savannah and I started looking, we started looking at documents really that were in the early 80s. Um, although we went in either direction of that. So this early part, and I think a lot of these um, men, they really thought they were going to be recognized and applauded for all this work they did. So I don't think they worried about it. I don't think they worried about it.
Pete: So, okay. Um, not everyone is familiar with the Southern Baptist Conference, so maybe give us a little background, maybe where it started. And especially let's talk about the relevance that it has, or may have, and the impact maybe it's had on American culture.
Jared: For instance, some people might call it a Southern Baptist Conference instead of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Savannah: Jared, I'm so happy you called him out for that.
Pete: Did I say that? Like I said. For those of us who’d just rather say SBC…
Jared: Yeah you did [laughing]
Pete: Southern Baptist Cueball. I don't know.
Savannah: Pete, do they teach you nothing in the Episcopalian church?
Pete: It's called the Episcopal church and no, they don't. [Everybody laughing] So, um, they, they certainly don't teach Southern Baptist polity and history and, uh, the history of women in the Southern Baptist Convention.
Beth: I'm going, Savannah, Savannah has learned so much about the SBC. So Savannah, do you want to start saying it from what you, your perspective? And then I'll fill in the gaps.
Pete: If she can control herself!
Beth: If she can stop laughing. Yeah I’ll let her, and then I’ll fill it in.
Savannah: Um, I do just have to name it's so funny for Jared and Pete to be asking like for real questions because we just like banter normally in our lives. And this is just, it's a new suit for me to be putting on.
Jared: It’s a new dynamic.
Pete: It's a new thing.
Savannah: The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest Protestant denomination in America, so there's like the Catholic Church, which is obviously Catholic, as you guys know, and then there's the Protestant Church, and the Southern Baptist Convention is the largest of those denominations. And so, um, it's super relevant, it started back, uh, well, it started because of basically racism and slavery where, uh, the Baptists broke into two over the issue of slavery and whether or not they would allow slaveholders to be missionaries. And the way that the SBC started was essentially by saying that they would allow for slaveholders to be missionaries and then that's what created the Southern Baptist Convention.
We talk about all this in the podcast, but in terms of relevance today–I mean, even just today, this guy named Scott Turner got, um, approved. He is an associate pastor at Preston Wood Baptist, which is a really big Southern Baptist church in Texas. He just became the director of A2D for the United States of America. And he's an associate pastor at a Southern Baptist church. So it's super influential when it comes to politics, super influential when it comes to culture wars, and just influential when it comes to theological thought. Beth, what did I miss?
Beth: Yeah. Well, I think we can't ignore the size of the Southern Baptist Convention. Um again, it is the largest and I, I will put a caveat, because baptists will quibble with this. Technically, it's not a denomination. We use that for shorthand, but technically it is an association of churches that come together to work um for certain um, you know, mostly for missionary evangelism efforts is what originally it was established for. So it's voluntary association of churches, which is why Baptists don't really have a creed.
Um, which is ironic because the Baptist faith and message in many ways has become creedal. Um, so that anyway, but so it is when I–the research that I started on this when talking about in the 80s and the 90s, the Southern Baptist Convention is going to peak at 16 million people. I think in 2007 is when it peaks at its highest. Today, it has a little under 13 million, but still. That is a very large number. Um, it is mostly concentrated in the Southern part of the US and the west, but it also has spilled upward north and all the way up into Canada, um, there are Southern Baptist churches, so it's, it's very widespread. Um, and it has really from its beginning, if you think about that, that beginning connection to support slavery, it has been political from its very beginning.
[Midroll music plays]
Pete: Something you just said triggered something that I remember from listening to the podcast, how the SBC is not a denomination. We're not like, telling you what to do…
Beth: Right.
Pete: But we're telling you what to do.
Beth: Yes.
Pete: Right? It seems like sort of a slippery thing.
Jared: Maybe I can ask it as a question because I was, that was exactly my follow up thought, was it feels like this conservative resurgence that you guys talk about in the podcast. That itself was also a move toward more galvanizing or gatekeeping, I guess, who's in and who's out according to certain things. So can you track the conservative resurgence theologically to also more authoritarian, if you want to call it that sort of governance within the SBC?
Beth: I think that's a great description.
Savannah: So within the Southern Baptist Convention, um, in the late 70s, three men, well two men, then ends up to be three, end up getting together in the mid to late 70s and deciding we don't like the direction that the Southern Baptist Convention is headed in because it's becoming too liberal.
And they would say that it was too liberal because they weren't taking the Bible literally, which you've heard a lot of us talk about on the Bible for Normal People because that's sort of Pete's thing with the inerrancy issue and so the Southern Baptists were very concerned with, like, we can't drift into liberalism by refusing to believe in inerrancy.
And then the other issue, which was kind of under the radar, but still very prevalent, was this issue of women's ordination. Because during the feminist movements, women started doing a bunch of things that they weren't supposed to do. And so these men get together in the 70s and they're like, we've got to put an end to it.
And that movement that they started ended up being known as the conservative resurgence.
Beth: Yeah, and it starts building, you know, really the key state for it is the 1978-1979 is where we see and where a pastor named Adrian Rogers um is elected to be President of the Southern Baptist Convention in 1979. And he is closely associated with Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler. Um, and Paige Patterson, for those who have paid attention to SBC News, or just paid attention to the news in general, he was actually fired from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for his alleged involvement in covering up, um, a rape, um, that happened on the campus of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and then Paul Pressler has been in the news quite a bit for his alleged, um, sexual assault of young boys and young men for decades.
And, um, so both of these men don't have stellar records in that sense. And yet they headed up, they spearheaded the turn of the Southern Baptist Church towards conservative theology that a big part of that was pushing women out of ministry positions.
Jared: Right. But maybe, can I follow up? Because I do want to ask a little bit more how you see, again, this, this–this parallel process of a kind of authoritarianism because there's–you go from, we're not a denomination to this conservative resurgence where we start kind of pushing people out all the way up to, you know, thinking of Rick Warren, who in his kind of speech not too long ago about women in ministry, sort of his case was like, hey guys, like we, let's focus on the essentials where this is not kind of the thing.
And it's sort of like they're–the vote to, uh, revoke their membership in the SBC seems to be kind of a pinnacle of this process where it really is like in, out, we're voting, we are kind of governing in some sense.
Beth: So, uh, one of the basic tenets of Baptist belief that has been there since the very emergence of Baptists in the 17th century is this idea of local autonomy as well as soul competency, which is that we are individually responsible before God for the choices that we make, and in the same way churches are individually responsible and able to make their own choices, um, without a governing body over them. And so this is why we consider it to be a convention, an association, um, because churches have the ability to choose their own pastors, to choose their own, you know, whether they're going to be reformed or not be reformed.
There's a lot of, um, we used to call it Big Tent Baptists. There's actually a lot of theological diversity, historically, within the Baptist tradition and with the rise of the conservative resurgence that big tent Baptist and that emphasis on local autonomy begin to be eroded. Um, where now it really did begin to move more towards a denomination and the sense that said, if you want to associate with us, then you have to fall in line on these particular measures, um, which focused on inerrancy and at the beginning, women's ordination.
Um, and so that is what–and that has gotten tighter and tighter and tighter. Um, and so what we just witnessed at the 2023-2024 SBC, where we see churches being disfellowshipped because they ordain women, um, this is a direct infringement on local autonomy of churches.
Pete: So what is the big deal with, um, I mean, I'm not thinking like a Southern Baptist here…
Savannah: Right.
Pete: Just leave. The crazies took over, just leave. Start your own thing. Have an independent church. Do whatever you have to do. But, um, what we heard with Rick Warren was one of those examples of almost pleading to stay in. We do belong here. Uh, is it just power in numbers or what, what, how do you understand that?
Savannah: Well, what's coming to mind is this woman that we interviewed named Kathy Hoppe, because I actually asked her a similar question, um, Pete, and I don't know, I don't even know if we put it in the actual podcast. But Kathy Hoppe, uh, was ordained in the Southern Baptist Church and her family ended up getting pummeled for it because her husband was a pastor in the SBC and she was ordained, not acting as a pastor, but when people found out that she was ordained in the 80s, it wreaked a lot of havoc in their lives, and they suffered a lot of consequences.
But, all of these decades later, Kathy and her husband still go to a Southern Baptist church. And I asked, like, why do you even stay when this place has really taken so much from you? And she said something amazing. She said something to the effect of, even if I'm just here to be a thorn in their side, this is my denomination too.
So like, they don't get to take that from her, is how she kind of operated. And I actually really appreciated that fire. But that being said, in episode three of the podcast, we also name that a lot of people did leave. When this conservative resurgence was happening, particularly women, they left in droves.
And there is actually a missing generation gap, particularly of women, like boomer women, who aren't in the SBC anymore because they had to go find solace in other denominations.
Beth: I'll say for churches. One of the reasons that they don't leave the SBC is, part of it is this identity. Like this has always been what we are. But the SBC offers significant resources.
Um, it offers financial, um, insurance and security to help pastors who–most pastors in the SBC are not mega church pastors. They are pastors of churches 200 or under. They have very low salaries and the SBC provides a lot of financial resources for them. Um, it also provides curriculum for their churches.
It provides, um, services to help them when their churches, um, have problems. Although apparently not if it's a sexual, um, accusation of sexual assault, but nonetheless, they provide a lot of services that help churches. So these small Southern Baptist churches, um, you know, Rick Warren–it didn't cost him, you know, I'm going to say this carefully because he wanted to stay, but it also didn't cost his church a lot to leave the Southern Baptist Convention. It was more about the identity thing. Um, most churches within the Southern Baptist Convention, it's going to cost them a lot to leave. Um, and they're also going to have to abandon the support of often their missionaries that they send out from their own churches.
Pete: Right. Okay. Yeah. There's a lot at stake there.
Beth: Right.
Jared: I wanted to ask that question because it's an interesting parallel and maybe I'm overgeneralizing because I grew up Southern Baptist and Republican, but to see both of these entities that the Republican Party being so like low government, no centralized authority, state based, to morph over the last two decades into what seems to me a lot more authoritarian, centralized power, and then to see the SBC follow that same trajectory, it's an interesting connection point to see like what's happening under the surface that leads these organizations that have traditionally been so like, no, we're pushing down centralized authority.
We're decentralizing it, the local polity or state politics that have really centralized these things. And I wonder if it is a sort of this cause mentality where we're on the right side of things and we need to, we can have power as long as we're fighting the right fight and if we can convince ourselves that it's the universal good, the absolute good, then we can have that power justifiably.
Beth: Yes, you are absolutely right. I think probably the best, um, scholarship specifically on the SBC about this is Barry Hankins, who's one of my colleagues at Baylor. He wrote a book called Uneasy in Babylon, which tells exactly what happened to the Southern Baptist Convention when it married into the culture wars. And today what we are witnessing right now in the Trump White House is a product of those culture wars.
Savannah: Yeah, they're super connected. I also wanted to say something that we found in the archives that was so interesting, you guys. When I was looking through the Pastor's Wife convention boxes, and once again, like, these are random folders, random letters, and I am just going through one by one.
We spent like eight hours a day for three days in a row going through this. I was looking through one of the Pastor's Wives, uh, convention, and the lady who was in charge of the Pastor's Wife convention, I found a letter of her asking Tipper Gore to come speak at the convention. And I thought, Al Gore's wife was asked to speak at the Southern Baptist Convention's, like, pastor's wife's dinner? Because it seemed so unfathomable to me, because now they seem completely intertwined where I can't imagine one apart from the other. But even going back, like, just, like, two, three, four decades, there was much more diversity in thought, and it's all in the archives, like, there's so much evidence.
And something else that Beth and I found, um, which is related but unrelated, was from the 60s, where pastor's wives got together and they debated whether or not being a pastor's wife was the best life. And so they had two women who are pastor's wives debate for and say, yes, this is the best possible life. It's an amazing life of service, et cetera. And then they had two pastor's wives debate against and say, no, like this is exhausting. Everyone's always asking you for things. You always have to put on a show.
And after this debate, there's documents of the minutes and the people who debated against won the debate. And imagine this happening today. Imagine, imagine four women debating and the one that says being a pastor's wife is the worst–imagine them winning–like, there was just such like a multiplicity of thought that we honestly, like I definitely did not know about until I got into the archives and saw it myself.
Jared: And this is the, I think the power of the work that, that you do in this podcast, um, All The Buried Women and, and Beth that you've done with biblical, um, in–in all of your books, including this one that's coming out, is, is placing these things in a context because we can be taught, whether it's explicit or implicit, that the way it is now is how it's always been. And so to go against the grain, the momentum is not in your favor. It is like you're going against all of history, and so to see that just a couple of decades ago, there was this diversity that it's a, it's a hopeful–-
One, I think it disempowers certain narratives that try to be universal and absolutize, but it also gives a hope that we could do that again. Like it's, to hear that there were two men in a coffee shop who really spurned this movement and, and two decades later, it has, three decades later, it's, it became, you know, came to fruition. The opposite can happen as well.
Beth: Yes, I mean, that's, you just summed up the conclusion of my book, Becoming The Pastor’s Wife.
Savannah: Spoiler alert!
Beth: Yeah, spoiler. It can go. It could have gone differently and it can still go differently.
[Midroll music plays]
Pete: I think I speak for Jared, the, the, the podcast is amazing and I really couldn't stop listening to it. And it's not because it was entertaining. It's because it was riveting and an expose.
Jared: And important.
Pete: An important thing. And I'll tell you, you know, you know, it's one thing, you know, the inerrancy squabbles, blah, blah, blah, but they always lead someplace.
Once you have that hook, then hyper literalism can take over and you can prove, uh, you know, a lot of stuff that probably shouldn't be proved. Um, and then, you know, the disenfranchisement, the systematic disenfranchisement of women in the pulpit, that's bad. But the other thing is really bad, too, which is the cover-ups of sexual misconduct, which apparently seems to be not just one or two instances in this movement.
And, um, uh, can you relay maybe a couple of things, you know, a little bit of a teaser for the episodes of, of some of those instances that, um, um, made you probably stop and think as well, what in heaven's name is going on here?
Beth: Well, I'll, I'll summarize the big one, um, which is my Chapter 8 in the book. And it's called The Cost of Dorothy's Hats. And by Dorothy, I mean, Dorothy Patterson, um, who wore hats to–who wears hats to symbolize female submission and this is also what Savannah and I conclude the–really, it's a running thread throughout this podcast, is the story of this woman named Maria. And I don't want to give too much away of her story, but I'll tell you that I ran across her story, I was in the archives, it was June, 2023, literally a week before the 2023 SBC convention, um, in which they voted, um, uh, it was the big vote, um, on if women, you know, to disfellowship churches that did not agree on, or did not adhere to, uh, to no female pastors.
And as I was in the archives, I was following this thread actually with Kathy Hoppe and this whole story, this ordination crisis in the early 80s. And I turned the page thinking it was going to be another one of these pastors writing in to complain about the ordination of Kathy Hoppe and another woman who was ordained in the same time frame. And what I found instead was a series of letters that were stapled together, um, that unfolded, uh, accusations of sex abuse against a pastor who was currently in a high position in the Southern Baptist world.
And in those letters, they, um, concluded that the pastor had indeed done these things. But then they decided to forgive and forget–and I'm using the words from the letters–um, and left this guy in that position. And I still remember the moment, in fact, I'm getting goosebumps telling you this because I mean, it was a powerful moment for me. Um, I was in shock. I was like, what the heck am I supposed to do with this? Um, and it set off a series of events that led to me tracing that whole story down. And then also Savannah joining me in it to help us tell the story of this pastor's wife named Maria.
Jared: Can we, can we talk a little bit more about the pastor's wife, um, as a role and function? Because I think it's particularly challenging. And maybe the theme for me as I've just been processing our conversation so far is this, is this insidious doublespeak that happens. And I see it with what you said.
I'm thinking of, in the podcast, you guys talk about, well, no, women can do this. We just have to call it something different and it has to look a certain way. And, but when you talk about the pastor's wife, I feel like that's particularly harmful because it's giving so much responsibility to these women without any authority. And I think over and over the organizational principle that, for me, is so hurtful is that. It is the weight and the pressure of responsibility without the voice and authority to control their own actions and decisions around it. Can you say more about, kind of, the pastor's wife and how that's evolved into that, which is for me a real problem.
Beth: Yes, so the podcast picks up when the pastor's wife is already evolved, especially in the SBC world. And I argue that the SBC is a major contributor to the evolution of this pastor's wife role, um, in which the pastor's wife is emblematic of what women are supposed to be in the Southern Baptist world. And that is supporting the ministry, the jobs of their husbands and focusing their life, um, on their—the home, the children, um, but also this supportive role to do whatever is needed um, to help their husband and by extension, the church.
So the way Dorothy Patterson describes this is, she says that a woman, um, is supposed to essentially pick up whatever pieces have fallen, um, wherever she is needed, she's supposed to step in and fill in those roles. You're supposed to do it with a happy spirit, gladly, because you're serving the Lord, even if you're absolutely exhausted and have no desire to teach a bunch of three year olds, um, or play the piano in church or anything else that you're being, you know, you do it. Because God has ordained this is your job.
Jared: Uh, you got to take up your cross and follow him.
Beth: It's exactly right. It's exactly right.
Jared: Suffering is the way.
Beth: And you know–and I think Savannah saw this in the archives in this pastor's wife documents that, um, you know, these are amazing women. They're incredible women, but yet there is this thread of exhaustion, this thread of like, this job is really hard and I didn't want it.
You know, some women who were like, I didn't know he wanted to be a pastor. I didn't want to do this. Why am I having to do this? Um, and so I think what it leaves us with is this clear, this clear idea that the pastor's wife role, um, is something that women themselves question and have problems with. And I would argue and I do argue in Becoming The Pastor's Wife that part of what happened is that, first of all, the pastor's wife role is not this biblically, um, this is– it's not a biblical role.
I can say that, you know, straight off. It's not a biblical role. We don't find this model in the bible. We also really don't find this model in history until after the Reformation and we do not find it where women who are married to pastors are required to serve alongside them in this type of job until really, we get into the 20th century.
Um, now there's some other parallels, you know, there's historical continuities that we could get into some nuance, but in general, the way we see the pastor's wife role today is very much a product of, um, conservative theology.
Pete: Well, goodness. Uh, you know, I'm, I'm interested in something here. Um, it's five episodes and you guys, you name names. A lot of names. Are you concerned about backlash? And please say no.
Savannah: Stop it, Pete! [laughing] This is why we have an amazing team of lawyers that are working for us. I'm serious! That, that is why that was the first thing after I reached out to Beth and I said, let's tell this story.
First of all, our goal is not to do a takedown podcast. It never has been, like genuinely. Beth and I just wanted to tell stories of women who have been hidden in the SBC archives and give them room to breathe. And especially when she found Maria's story, I felt very connected to Maria and I know Beth did too and it was important for us to share this woman's story for the first time publicly.
So there were a lot of emotional connections there, none of which involve, you know, bashing the Southern Baptist Convention, but I did know that if we dug deep enough, I knew that we were going to come across lawsuits because I was familiar enough with it. And so when I reached out to this team of lawyers, they were amazing and so on board. I'm so grateful for them. Um, but I, you know, I was telling my friend the other day, I was like, yeah, we didn't set out to do an expose, but it's like anywhere you go in the SBC's leadership, you keep on finding lawsuits attached to their names.
And so, I think, while that was not our intention at all, and I hope that we have such a redemptive tone, throughout the narrative, um, arc of the podcast, I do get a little nervous. I do get nervous that people are not going to know our intention.
However, that being said, one of my favorite things about featuring Maria, who is now dead, is that there's this big narrative, um, not just in the SBC, but there's a big narrative at large, that particularly women who are victims of abuse only come out to get a platform or to have clout, and one of the things that I love about some of the stories we share is that all these people are dead.
They're dead as doornails. And so we are telling their stories to not—for them not to get anything in return. It's just to share the truth about these parts of the SBC’s history. And so I do hope that in that way, we are, we're, I don't know, covered. Beth, do you agree with what I just said? It's okay if you don’t.
Beth: Yes. Well, no, I, I do. And I think too, I mean, honestly, Pete, I've, I have had so much stress over this book. I mean, honestly, um, I was not looking for the story I tell in the 8th Chapter. Um, it was one I stumbled across, it took a lot when I followed it down, you know, trying to decide if I wanted to tell the story or not.
Um, and I still am having anxiety. Every once in a while, I'll send my editors like these, you know, overnight anxious emails. I've sent him to Savannah too, before. I'm like, oh my gosh, Savannah. Um, because it does it. It totally–it stresses me out. Um, but yet at the same time, first of all, all of the men that we talk about in this, um, and who are connected to the story of Maria, um, they don't do in–you know, essentially what they do–it's their attitude. It's not actually their actions. It's just their attitude. It's just that they learn about this story and instead of–and having the power–they could have said something. They could have stepped in. They could have even just checked on, um, on to see what was going on now. And they just chose not to. They were like, we have to be, um, “a redemptive community” is what the president of the SBC said.
And he said, I think, he said, “we all have problems and so we just need to be a redemptive”–So it's more their attitude, their callousness towards what's happening to women, um, at the same time that they are pushing this destructive agenda that is pushing women out of leadership roles.
Pete: Right. So, and to be, to be clear too, from my point of view, listening to this, I didn't, it doesn't come across as a takedown.
Savannah: Nice. Yeah.
Pete: It's just, you're listing stuff that happened to people, to real people. But that's going to be interpreted, of course, by some people as a personal attack and things like that.
Jared: If I can channel my Enneagram 8, I kind of like, you know, Anne Lamott says, if you wanted to be talked about better, you should have behaved better. So…
Beth: You know, I mean, yeah, that's, I, you know what, as I said, when I first ran across the story. Um, I actually reached out to a religion reporter, not to spill the story, but he was one of the people I reached out to, because I'm like, I don't know what to do with, I'm a medieval historian. I don't know what to do when I run across things like this that might have living people connected to it, and so from the very beginning, and this is one of the reasons that, you know, I actually had a moment, I was like, I could release this with what I have on the eve of the 2023 SBC, and I guarantee you, it would have exploded out there in the news.
Uh this thing, but I would, as a historian I actually had this moment where I wrote back to the reporter and I said I don't want to tell this story right now. Um, I said, I want to know, I want to find out more what happens. I want to confirm this, um, and I want to, and, and at that time, I actually didn't know about Maria.
Um, I learned about Maria when we, I followed the story to Toronto, to the Canadian Baptist of Ontario and Quebec. Um, so I, but I do not think any historical story that I have ever told in my life has caused me as much anxiety as this one has and uh, uh, yeah.
Savannah: But I do love that Anne Lamont quote, Jared, and you're exactly right. And I think too that the truth, the truth deserves to be told.
Pete: Right
Savannah: And I don't think that, if anyone has been paying attention, a lot of this won't probably feel brand new or shocking. I think that there are stories that we tell that are new and haven't been told before. But if you're paying attention, which like, the article that came out last year that said women are leaving the SBC in droves and women are leaving the church in general in droves. And I actually think this podcast names part of the reasons why that is.
And so I think that as we can keep on naming the truth, hopefully it will be brought to light and we can start to do better.
Beth: You know, and I, I also hope too, as a woman who has lived in these spaces—I grew up SBC. I've been a pastor's wife for, you know, what, 27 years now. Um, I hope that women who are in similar situations, um, can hear the story. And that maybe it can provide them some, um, some hope, some thoughts that this is not how it should be, um, that there is something, and also that there are other women who have experienced this, um, and that there is a way that this is not how it should be, um. And so I'm just, I'm really hoping that—and in fact, one of the people who I interviewed, who gave me permission to tell part of the, the story, uh, for this, that was, I wrote it in the acknowledgements, what they said to me, they said, um, may this provide correction for some and healing for others. And that's my prayer.
Pete: People have been hurt. People have been affected. The truth needs to be told. And if they didn't want to be talked bad about…
Jared: They should have behaved better.
Pete: They should have behaved better. Yeah.
Jared: Well, I think that I had a couple other things, but I think that's a great place to end. I think you, you gave us a little benediction there, Beth. I think we need to end there. So…Well, thank you both so much for, well, coming on one, but more importantly, for doing this work, for putting this out in the world. And, uh, we are so excited for us to be having, having our names associated with it. I just feel so proud to be a part of it. So thank you so much.
Beth: Thank you.
Savannah: Thanks!
[Outro music plays]
[All The Buried Women Teaser Music plays]
Beth: Let's set the scene. In the 1970s, as women's rights movements continued to grow, Southern Baptist organized a number of national gatherings focused on the role of women in the church. Some Southern Baptist welcomed women into ministry with open arms. Others decried their full inclusion and began organizing against.
This push and pull is perhaps most clearly seen in the 1983 and 1984 annual SBC conventions. In 1983, the SBC passed a resolution on women that encouraged, quote, all Southern Baptists to continue to explore further opportunities of service for Baptist women, to ensure maximum utilization of all God called servants.
Savannah: This era progressively shed a light on a difficult reality for the SBC. It was divided. One side was gaining momentum towards a full endorsement of women's inclusion, but the other, a reactionary faction, was doubling down on excluding women. It is estimated that in 1984, there were around 250 ordained women in the SBC, a denomination that had over 14 million members in 30,000 churches.
Despite being small in number, these ordained women were mighty in disruption. Even if they didn't want to be. Even if they were simply doing what their beloved Southern Baptist churches told them to do. Follow the call of God on their lives.
Kathy: I told my pastor, listen, it would be easier to be a prostitute in this church than it is to be an ordained woman.
Woman Preacher: The Spirit of the Lord is upon you, because God has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
Kathy: Women deserve to know that there are places where their gifts and their ministry is valued.
Interviewee: I looked at him and said, Dr. Guy, you have every right to be completely wrong.
Savannah: Created in partnership with the Bible for Normal People, this is All the Buried Women, a miniseries uncovering women's stories hidden in the Southern Baptist Convention’s archives
Beth: Hosted by me, Beth Allison Barr.
Savannah: and me Savannah Locke.
Savannah: Episode 2, the Invisible Woman. It was the fall of 1979 when Kathy Hoppe started her first semester at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary in California. Golden Gate was one of the six SBC seminaries in the country. It was small, around 550 students, but growing quickly. According to a Baptist Press article, Kathy Hoppe was one of 1,660 women enrolled in a Southern Baptist seminary at the time.
Women accounted for 18 percent of total enrollment in SBC seminaries, which was up from 10 percent in 1972.
Kathy: My name is Kathy Hoppe. And, currently, I'm an Associate Professor of Psychology at Oral Roberts University. I have practiced as a licensed marital and family therapist for the past 30 years. I have two master's degrees.
I have a Doctor of Ministry degree. I have a Doctor of Education in Community Care and Counseling with trauma focus. And I have a psychology degree from the University of North Texas.
Beth: We asked why Kathy, born and raised in the SBC, chose to go to seminary. Her response? Her pastors taught her to follow God's calling.
Kathy: I was talking with a friend about our experiences of, of growing up and, and hearing. leaders, Baptist leaders talk to us. And I said, you know, they always talked about obeying God, following God, following God's calling and are you called to ministry? And I said, I feel like I was misled because I think they should have said, this is just for the boys, but they didn't say that.
And so of course, along the way, I thought. Yes, I am led, I'm led to be part of this calling. I am led to be a minister of some type, whatever that means, you know, I'll, I'll become a minister and the natural step to me. That seemed logical was to go to seminary. Now, I will tell you, I had a couple of people say, don't you wanna get a master of religious education?
Why do you want a master of divinity? And that made no sense to me. I said, I'm not interested in religious education.
Beth: The Master's in religious education degree was something Southern Baptist seminaries began to develop as a way to shuffle women away from the master's of divinity degree. It's a real degree.
Some men even got it. But in the beginning, it seems to have been created as a way to separate MDiv students from women students. But Kathy, who was considering chaplaincy at the time, had her eyes set on the MDiv program. For the most part, her experience was positive. She met her husband, Jeff, loved her classes, and was surrounded by a great community.
Kathy: I was surrounded by a group of friends that I think supported me. I don't recall that there was any difficulty with the professors. Uh, there was no direct statement made about being a female and being in The MDiv program, the only statement came from a peer, a female peer, when we were going to be ordained and she learned that, she said, you are going to ruin your husband's career.
And I actually looked at her and said, I think that's up to God. That's not up to me. Now it altered greatly his, the choices for him in his career. And I didn't realize to what extent it would do that. But for the most part, it wasn't until I was at this seminary from 79 to 82. So the first few years were far better.
It was really in the last year that the new students, I felt more pressure from them and more questions about why are you here, why are you getting this degree. But they weren't really my peers at that point. I already had a good set of peers who were supportive. I had no idea the extent or the depth of the problem.
I just thought I would be supported. Because I was going to do God's work. If that just seemed logical to me, why wouldn't anybody want to affirm that? Oh, you're going to fulfill God's calling on your life? That's wonderful.
Savannah: Don't miss what Kathy said there. I had no idea the depth of the problem. I just thought I would be supported.
While she noticed a difference in some peers between 1979 and 1982, she didn't know why. Why were some of the incoming students more antagonistic towards her? Why did they question her being in seminary? Was something changing? Well, what Kathy didn't know, and couldn't have known, is that the exact year she started seminary at Golden Gate, a calculated and dramatic takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention was forming, and she was going to get caught in the crossfire.
[Outro music plays]
Jared: Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you want to support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just want to give a little money, go to thebiblefornormalpeople.com/give.
Pete: And if you want to support us and want an all access pass to our classes, ad-free live stream of the podcast and a thoughtful community of people asking tough questions about the Bible and faith, you can become a member of our online community, the Society of Normal People at thebiblefornormalpeople.com/join.
Jared: And lastly, it goes a long way if you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show. In addition, you can let us know what you thought about the episode by emailing us at info@thebiblefornormalpeople.com.
Outro: You've just made it through another episode of the Bible for Normal People. Don't forget. You can catch our other show Faith For Normal People in the same feed, wherever you get your podcasts.
This episode was brought to you by the Bible For Normal People team. Brittany Hodge, Stephen Henning, Joel Limbauan, Savannah Locke, Melissa Yandow, Tessa Stultz, Danny Wong, Lauren O'Connell, and Naiomi Gonzalez.
