Episode 246: Amy Kalmanofsky – Dangerous Sisters in the Hebrew Bible

Pete  

You’re listening to the Bible for Normal People, the only God-ordained podcast on the internet. I’m Pete Enns.

Jared  

And I’m Jared Byas.

Intro  

Pete  

Hey folks this is me, Pete. Before we get started with our episode today, I want to bug you with some info about our May class. Now, I know you’ve been hearing a lot about our classes, but bear with me because this class is going to be the best yet…because I’m the one teaching it! It’s called “The History of Biblical Interpretation” and it’s happening live on May 31st, from 8-9:30pm Eastern Time. And it’s a one night class surveying the seven stages of interpretation from Second Temple Judaism, to post-modernity, which I am so excited to teach about. So, it’s pay-what-you-can until the class ends, and then it costs $25 to download. And if you want to access this class, and all future classes—yes, past and future—you can get that for 12 bucks a month through our community, the Society of Normal People. And for more information and to sign up for the class go to www.TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/interpretation. 

Jared

Hey folks, so we’re about halfway through 2023 and you know what that means—that we start getting anxious and overthinking not just the rest of 2023 but the rest of our lives. Years to come.

Pete

Yes. Amen.

Jared

And one of the things that we really appreciate is when people are able to support us through monthly giving, and some people may not even know that that’s something that we offer.

Pete

We do, we love that actually. So this week, here’s what we’re doing. We’re doing a little friendly competition to see who is the most beloved podcast host. And who is that? Is it you, Jared? Is it me? Or is it Marmalade?

Jared

There’s a lot of confidence with our team to think that out of all the podcast hosts, there’s only three options. That’s pretty good.

Pete

That’s good. But one of them’s Marmalade.

Jared

Pete

Jared

Okay, so anyone who becomes a monthly supporter this week will get to pick a team: Team Jared, Team Pete, or Team Marmalade. So you tell us whose team you’re on by going to TheBibleforNormalPeople.com/give.

Pete

Now for those of you who are already part of our monthly supporter group, thank you so much for all you do to help us accomplish our mission: bringing the best in biblical and faith scholarship to everyday people. Now Jared, who’s going to win this competition? 

Jared

I don’t know what the criteria is. What do we mean by “best”? If we mean—

Pete 

Well that’s—I mean, you’re getting too philosophical and just—

Jared

Ending every episode with “excellent”? Then that’s gonna be me.

Pete

Jared

I’ll win.

Pete

And I don’t think anybody who listens, that’s their criteria. So. My concern is that I think clearly me. Which one of us has been on Good Morning America?

Jared

Um…

Pete

Me, so that’s, I mean, that’s—

Jared

Pete

The problem I have though is that I have to face Marmalade every day. 

Jared

That’s true.

Pete

And she sometimes…

Jared

So you may throw it? Is that what you’re saying?

Pete

She’s a little pissy sometimes and she’s on me and she starts clawing, so…I’m—for my sake, it needs to be Marmalade just for my quality of life at home.

Jared

That’s good. I mean—

Pete

Are you okay with that?

Jared

To be fair, yeah, because…when you say—

Pete

I mean it’s up to the voters, anyway.

Jared

—who’s been on Good Morning America, you were on it in the afternoon. Which is still confusing to me. How were you on Good Morning America in the afternoon?

Pete

Because they have an afternoon slot, Jared. Don’t you watch that every day?

Jared

I, no, I don’t.

Pete

No, because you’re working.

Jared

I did watch yours, though.

Pete

I know. Like a week later.

Jared

Okay. So I don’t know who will win, I guess that’s the whole point of this! We’ll find out. What they don’t know is whoever loses gets fired. [Laughing] That what this is about.

Pete

Jared

Alright, well that’s a real up—

Pete

I don’t think my chances are really good at it, actually.

Jared

That’s a real optimistic way of leaving.

Pete

So help us.

Jared

So anyway, go to thebiblefornormalpeople.com/give. Thank you so much!

Pete

On today’s episode, we’re talking about dangerous Sisters in the Hebrew Bible with Amy Kalmanofsky.

Jared  

And Amy is both Dean and professor at Jewish Theological Seminary. She’s the author of several books, including “The Dangerous Sisters in the Hebrew Bible,” which of course is our focus for the conversation today. And we’re really excited to learn from her about it. It’s a fantastic episode, we do a deep dive on many different topics in many different areas. 

Pete  

Alright, let’s get into it.

Intro  

Amy  

Intro  

Pete  

Right, Amy, welcome to our podcast.

Amy  

Thank you for having me. 

Pete  

Oh, absolutely. Well, let’s just start with here, we’re going to talk about, you know, sisters and sisterhood in the Hebrew Bible. What brought you to focus on this in your academic work?

Amy  

Well, you know, everything that I have ever studied actually has been somehow related to my life, you know, I find that the things that I’m interested in very much changes over time as my life changes. So my interest in sisters, actually, in some ways grew from the fact that I come from a family where I have two brothers, which actually, obviously, makes me a sister. But I desperately, growing up, wanted to actually have my own sister, and I was the youngest of three and I actually have very clear memories of begging my parents—which believe me, they were not interested in responding to this—that, “Please give me a sister!”

Pete  

Amy  

I always, you know, sort of wanted one, desperately, growing up. I’ve always been somebody who has very close connections with friends, with other women, which is kind of a sisterhood. And then the other thing that drew me to the topic ultimately, is I have actually four children. And I have two boys and two girls. So I have watched my girls form a sisterhood with each other and I have watched each of my girls be a sister to their brothers. And this has just been something I’ve loved watching. But also something that I have found very, very interesting. So my interest really does come from my own family and my own life.

Jared  

I love that. I love the connection to the personal story. 

Pete  

Jared  

Let’s talk about the Bible and sisters and sisterhood. So, if you could, give us a quick kind of thirty-thousand foot view, orient us here—you talk about three categories of sisters; sister pairs, incestuous sisters, sisterhoods, and also these two paradigms of ideal and dangerous. So can you kind of give us a backdrop here?

Amy  

Well, first, I would like to say, like, one of the things that I’m always interested in is thinking about whether there is a typical narrative that the Bible says about any kind of character. So, I think when we think of the Bible, and—you know, part of what I tried to do in this book is to kind of challenge this, right?—When we think of the Bible, we think of fathers and sons and the tension between them. We think of brothers and the tension between them and we feel like these are sort of the baseline stories in the Bible. So one of the things that I’m interested in, is asking this question of “Is there a kind of overarching narrative about sisters?” 

And part of what I discovered is I think that there is an overarching narrative, and at the same time, I think that you can divide sisters into various different categories, all that kind of fit into that narrative but in a way are sort of different aspects of it. So I look at paired sisters, and the dynamic that happens when you have, you know, sisters in stories that are related to each other. I look at stories that have sort of independent sisters, sisters of brothers. And, you know, I noticed actually—and this is something I’m happy to talk more about—is that a number of those stories touch on the theme of the motif of incest, which is really quite interesting. And then I also look at what I call sisterhoods, which are, you know, I sort of divide my study between a relationship between women that’s biological, you can say, that are sort of blood sisters. And a relationship between women that’s not biological, that one could say is actually more could be friends, people that are not obviously related to each other. And also, one could say, not just between two women that form a sisterhood, but even broader thinking about groups of women. And so I look at these three different types of sister stories in the Bible and say, sort of, what’s unique about them, about each of these types, but at the same time, is there an overarching commonality that brings all of these stories together to say that there is, in fact, a sister story, a kind of typical sister narrative that you find in the Bible?

Pete  

Yeah, I can’t wait to get into some of those stories specifically. Before we get into some of those details, to help orient all of us to this general study, how would you summarize the narrative role that sisters play in the Hebrew Bible? The brothers get a lot of press, they get a lot of airtime. The sisters don’t as much, but they’re there. But so, what role do they play, narrative role do they play in the Hebrew Bible?

Amy  

I mean, I think this is very interesting. First of all, there’s just a point of comparison. So you kind of think about what brothers, you know, what the role brothers play. And I would say, when you think about brothers, you think about rivalry, and you think about securing the inheritance, right? That’s kind of the typical concern of the brothers’ story. Sisters, you have a different story—and I always say this kind of fundamentally about understanding, kind of, the role that women play in the Bible and the question of the status women might have had in ancient Israel’s culture. You know, one of the most important things is that women could not inherit, right? They couldn’t inherit property with rare, rare exception, actually, but women could not inherit property. So their story is not about securing the inheritance. Right? 

So this is true, you know, you can say broadly about women, but sisters in particular. It’s not directly about securing the inheritance. Their story—what I suggest—is really about the stability of their households. And—both the household that they’re born into, and the household that they potentially are going to enter—but their stories are really about security. So I would say that is actually the common thread, I would, you know, between all the sister stories. The other thing I would say, which is really kind of quite interesting, in a certain way, one of the things that I think differentiates brothers and sisters in the narratives told about them is, as I said a moment ago, brothers are certainly known for their rivalry between each other and fighting each other. And sisters, I mean, we can talk about some of the sisters more specifically, and certainly probably the most famous sisterhood, are the sisters in the Bible are Rachel and Leah. And they certainly have a rivalry with each other. That is part of their story. 

But one of the things that I discovered in my work is that’s not the only, that’s not what their story is totally about. Their story is about other things as well. And not only do they have rivalry, but they also have solidarity, they have the opportunity to come together in their narratives. So in some ways, it’s kind of interesting to think that, I would argue, sister stories have more variation than brothers stories that are much more focused on the inheritance, and which brother’s going to get it. Sisters, their stories are about the security of their households—the household, they come from the household they’re entering—but they are actually able to be rivals with each other, they’re also able to be partners with each other in a way that brothers can’t.

Jared  

So in a way, then sisters are allowed—in some ways because they fly under the radar—to have more of a dynamism and a dynamic space.

Amy  

I, actually, I want to say one thing about that, because I mean, just to be very specific, which I think is really kind of interesting—I mean, we all know that, in some ways, you want to be the eldest son in ancient culture—I mean, actually not just so ancient, I mean, we know that this continues even to this day. You know, you have a place of privilege by being the eldest son. And what the Bible effectively does is overturn that privilege, right? So you have many stories about brothers where the younger son usurps the older son, and that’s quite interesting, but it matters who’s the elder and who’s the younger because it matters, you know, to the narratives in the Bible. With the sisters, because they’re not going to inherit, it doesn’t actually matter who’s older and who’s younger, that isn’t what differentiates them. So in fact, the Rachel and Leah story, which is so interesting, you know, you have Leah as the elder and Rachel is younger, but to some extent, it doesn’t matter who marries, like, who is going to marry Jacob? It doesn’t matter if it’s Rachel, it doesn’t matter if it’s Leah, it doesn’t matter if it’s the elder or the younger. So it does give sisters more flexibility in their stories, which I think is quite interesting. More complexity is what I would argue.

Jared  

Right. That kind of brings into this idea of ideal narratives and dangerous [narratives]. Can you say more about that? Because I think that’s also a helpful way to think about these paradigms of how they’re presented in the narrative.

Amy  

So as I said, I think sisters are about the stability of the household. And mostly—just if you think about it—sisters, if they’re lucky, become wives and then they become mothers and their stories grow beyond being sisters. And I would argue that most sister stories have a focus on their natal households, the households that they’re born into. And so it’s a question of the ideal sister, in my argument, would be the sister that strengthens her natal household, doesn’t threaten the stability of that household. One could say, even “enriches” that household, supports that household. That’s the ideal sister. The dangerous sister is obviously the opposite of that, and introduces insecurity into the household or introduces threat into the household, and is what I would argue, you know, I mean, dangerous is a great term, it’s obviously not, you know, I’m using it without precision necessarily, I think it’s, you know, it captures a lot of the spirit. But you could say that, you know, instead of “dangerous,” you could say, “destabiliser” right? That the sister somehow destabilizes, threatens the natal household. And that’s what makes her dangerous.

Jared  

So there’s some stories, again, the stories orbit around the idea of stability of the household, the ideal are more and more stabilizing the household and the dangerous are more and more destabilizing.

Amy  

Yeah, I can give you I mean, the ideal sisters, in some ways they exist. And I would say the best example of that, I mean, I could give you two really straightforward examples. One is Miriam, which is Moses’ sister. Miriam is actually such an interesting character. And one of the things that makes her really, really interesting is she never actually progresses beyond being a sister, she remains a sister. In other words, according to the Bible, she does not marry. Later interpretation of her—like she doesn’t become a wife, and she certainly doesn’t become a mother. Rabbinic interpretation actually does marry her off. So it’s interesting that they’re sort of uncomfortable, but in the Bible itself, every time you meet Miriam, she’s actually seen as being a sister. But what’s, you know, I think the best portrait of an ideal sister is the first time you meet her and there in—and this is in the book of Exodus, in chapter two of Exodus—you have Miriam, essentially, protecting her brother Moses, right? As he’s floating down the river. So in that moment, you really see that she is actually protecting her brother, and she actually not only protects his life and make sure he stays safe, but then also makes sure when Pharaoh’s daughter discovers Moses, that Miriam is the one that actually connects Moses back to his own mother so she can nurse him. So she is, you know, very much of a, you know, she stabilizes, strengthens, protects her natal household. 

The other example I would say, actually isn’t of an ideal sister it’s actually the character—one of my most favorite characters in all of the Bible, most, most interesting character as a female figure, and she is somebody who does become a wife and does become a mother, but the first time you meet her is as a sister—and that’s Rebekah. And you meet her as a sister in Genesis chapter 24. And she’s actually—this is the, you know, it’s the story that tells about how it’s the process of her betrothal to Isaac—but she actually, in that narrative functions as a sister and her brother negotiates the marriage on her behalf, and it’s a good deal. It’s a good, you know, it’s a good marriage negotiation, and her natal household is enriched through her marriage. So she is, when you first meet her, a sister and I would say is an ideal sister. 

The thing that I think is kind of interesting is the Bible does have these ideal sisters. But part of my argument is that most of the sisters you meet are dangerous and even the ideal sisters kind of become dangerous, which is sort of interesting. That certainly is what happens to Miriam, who later in her story challenges the authority of her brothers and one could say is, essentially at that point, her story is finished. And she dies in a kind of shame at the end of her narrative. So I think there’s something interesting about—there are ideal sisters, but in some ways, the Bible is more interested in the dangerous ones. And in some ways, the ideal sisters become dangerous throughout their narrative.

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Pete  

Let me ask—this is really intriguing, because you know, we’re talking about dangerous or destabilizing forces of these sisters. In your opinion, is that intentional on the part of the biblical writers? Are they trying to present something that’s destabilizing? And is that a positive evaluation of the sisters? Or is something else going on entirely?

Amy  

These are great, great questions. First of all, you know, obviously, I don’t know. And I’m always suspicious, you know, “intention of the writer”, that, you know—

Pete  

Yeah… Me too. [Laughs]

Amy  

I don’t think they’re out to get sisters in a certain way. But I think that they’re—and I, you know, obviously, the Bible is an incredibly complicated text, there is no one author, right? So that also makes it, you know, very difficult to talk about the intention of it. But I do think that there is a consistency in the way these women appear in general, and certainly sisters appear, and I think they are used actually intentionally in a particular way. And one of the things that I say, I feel like it seems that there is an anxiety, I would say, that sisters induce—and we can talk about why that is the case, particularly for sisters, I think, you know, there is certainly anxiety and I think there’s particular reason—but I think that many women, right, you know, that you meet in the Bible, kind of introduce anxiety, you know, into the narrative. And they, in some ways, are all destabilizers in many ways. That said, I think that they may be dangerous figures, they may reflect patriarchal values from the Bible, and from the culture that produces the Bible, and the authors that produce the Bible. All of that may be true. That said, the women in the Bible—and this is true for the sisters—may be dangerous destabilizers, but they are significant figures, they’re powerful figures. So I think that the Bible has a very complex relationship to its women, they see them as dangerous, and they also see them as powerful. And I think that’s just something to really recognize, actually.

Jared  

Maybe then, yeah. Can you just go further with that? Because you mentioned why this anxiety is produced? Is it connected to that powerfulness, that is the reason for the anxiety? Or is there more to it?

Amy  

You know, maybe those kinds of arguments, I think, in some ways are chicken and the egg. And I also don’t want to make a kind of essentialist argument that women are powerful and have a certain—I mean, I could make that argument, and I’m happy to hear that argument. It’s not the argument that I would make—and sort of are inherently powerful, and therefore, men have, you know, sort of recognized that and see that, perceive that as some kind of threat and it doesn’t induce some kind of anxiety. 

I mean, I think that’s not the case. That may be the case. But I think really on a kind of basic, you know, much more kind of hooked into the way people live, I think that—and especially in an ancient culture—I think it’s really the fear, you know, that the women of the household, the sisters, the daughters in general, are going to marry out. And by bringing in husbands into the family, they are potentially bringing in rival patriarchs, and that creates anxiety in the household. So who the sister is going to marry is a real question, right? Who the daughter is going to marry. 

One of the things that is kind of interesting about sisters in particular—in many ways, much of what I say about sisters maybe you could say also about daughters. I didn’t focus—I think there’s more to be said about sisters. But you could say similarly, there’s similar anxieties. They function in similar ways. Because you’re going to have to marry your daughters, you’re going to marry your sisters. They’re going to leave their natal households, their families, and go into their husbands’ households. And they’re going to introduce these rival patriarchs. The one thing that is particularly interesting about sisters in this regard, is there is some research that suggests that brothers, even more than fathers, had a particular role in the matchmaking. So, that, you know, that’s partly why I think the anxiety of who your sister is going to marry is, you know, so evident in the Bible, it may reflect the fact that brothers were very much, as it is with Rebekah. Right, it’s her brother Laban that actually negotiates her marriage, not her father, who is in fact mentioned. So I think that there’s something about the anxiety of these sisters that are going to leave their homes, leave their families and marry out and then kind of link their families to what might be threatening rival patriarchs.

Pete  

Yeah, well, let’s, let’s get into some specifics now with some of these stories. We mentioned before these three categories of sister pairs, incestuous sisters, and sisterhoods. And we’ve touched already a little bit on Rachel and Leah. But let’s keep going with that. But maybe we can also get to like Lot’s daughters. I’m assuming that’s an incestuous sister story? 

Amy  

Yes. 

Pete  

Sort of? Okay, good. 

Amy  

Yeah. 

Pete  

Amy  

Right. So the category—and I mean, it’s at the end of the story, right, they become incestuous sisters and it’s really quite interesting. So, yeah, in the first half of the book, I have these sister pairs. And one of the things that by, sort of, lifting up these pairs of sisters, you see commonalities of the story, right? Like you actually—I mean, it’s interesting that you have Rachel and Leah, Lot has two daughters, you have Michal and Merab, who are Saul’s daughters, and then you have what I, you know, sort of the sister pair that’s kind of more metaphorical and a little bit different than the other things, because it’s really not narrative, it’s more poetry—and that is the fact that Israel and Judah in the prophets are also presented as sisters. 

So it’s just interesting that you have four sets of sister pairs, and sort of looking at them in comparison with each other and seeing similarities and seeing differences. So Rachel and Leah, in some ways, is, you know, the most familiar story. And it’s also- there’s actually the most material, it’s the longest narrative, it’s actually several chapters long. In some ways, I think of it as the paradigmatic sister story, because there’s so much material to it. The story of Lot’s daughters, which is kind of interesting. I said a moment ago, that in some ways, daughters and sisters have similar stories and so, isn’t it interesting, we don’t actually think of—I mean, they are not named, so that itself is interesting. So we can’t really talk about them, but they are mostly referred to as daughters. 

But at the end of the story, this is actually told in Genesis chapter 19, they have escaped Sodom and Gomorrah with their father, in their minds, the world has been destroyed, and they are the last—at least it’s what the Bible says—humans on Earth, and they want to ensure humans that continue to exist and ensure their father continues to exist. So they get him drunk and have sex with him. And each of them gives birth to a child, and their children actually go on to, they’re the ancestors of other nations the Moabites and the Ammonites, who actually, by the way, are Israel’s enemies, which is really quite interesting. So their story ends, right? They are incestuous sisters in that they seduce their father. And they are a perfect example, I would say, of sisters…

Pete  

Amy  

…that destabilize their natal households. And I argue in the book, Lot, as a character, kind of needs to be gotten rid of, because he is, at the moment that his story gets told, one could say, the “likely heir” to Abraham, because Abraham at this point doesn’t have any children. Right? And so remember, the father and the brother narrative is all about heirs and inheritance. So my argument is that the Bible tries to get rid of and actually effectively does get rid of Lot through this incestuous act. And not only gets rid of Lot from the story, and it’s that’s where actually Isaac is born. So the story progresses through Isaac obviously. And Lot is no longer part of the story but interestingly enough, the son’s born from this illicit union, become Israel’s enemies, and enemies that you are not actually supposed to ever marry. So they are sort of completely taken out of the narrative and my argument is that it’s the sisters that do that. So they destabilize their household. They’re dangerous in that way. And yet you see that the Bible uses them, right, that they’re significant in order to allow the Bible’s narrative to go forward.

Jared  

You mentioned the sisters and then the incestuous sisters. 

Amy  

Yeah. 

Jared  

Can you say a little bit more just about the sisterhoods? Because, again, immediately comes to mind Ruth and Naomi, and how did they fit into this framework?

Amy  

I mean, Ruth and Naomi is just, in some ways, the most interesting—the book of Ruth is the most interesting book in the whole Bible, I think, just because how unique it really is, it’s such a female-centric book, and genuinely so. And that’s where, I mean, this question of intent, the author’s intention. I don’t know. Right? I wouldn’t make that kind of argument. But it is so clearly a story about women. So with the book of Ruth, it’s sort of an interesting thing, because I look at that as a sisterhood, and by that my argument is that sisterhoods are not biological relationships, it’s an interpersonal relationship created among women. And, you know, we have throughout the Bible, groups of women, and they’re called “sisters,” you know, and the sisterhood you meet and they’re groups of women—and you actually find them also in the book of Ruth, there’s like this group of this female chorus, one could say, that you find in the book of Ruth, you also find it in the Song of Songs, I also write about that. 

But what makes Ruth and Naomi’s relationship so interesting, is part of what I think is going on, is that they begin their relationship in this kind of more hierarchical form of a kind of mother/daughter—more precisely, mother in-law/daughter in-law relationship and that’s a very hierarchical relationship, a parent/child relationship is much more hierarchical than a sibling relationship, which I would argue is more horizontal. So they begin, Ruth and Naomi, begin their relationship as a kind of mother/daughter, mother in-law/daughter hierarchical relationship, but in the course of their narrative, they become more of a horizontal relationship. And I would argue that the relationship becomes more like sisters to each other. There are plenty of people that argue just, and—you know, one of the things I love about the Bible, as you can see, I love it a lot, is that there are many, many ways you can read any story, there’s no one precise way to read and that’s the fun of it. 

There are plenty of scholars that actually like to look at Ruth and Naomi as being more of a marital relationship between the two of them. And that’s interesting, and also a more horizontal relationship than, I would say, parent/child. But my read of the book is that they actually become more like sisters, and that they function, you know, the book brings into focus levirate marriage, which is a form of marriage that happens if one brother dies, the other brother marries the widow, so that they can continue the line. So it’s a form of marriage that kind of focuses on brothers, and it’s really about one brother kind of replacing, or assuming the identity of, another brother. And my argument in this chapter is that Ruth and Naomi are sort of the parallel to that, sisters, and that they really in some ways, their identities, like brothers through levirate marriage, become identified. And at the end of the book, you really see that because at the end scene, it’s sort of like you’re not really sure who’s nursing the child, who’s caring for—there’s a kind of collapsing of their identities. So I see them as being kind of, they are a sisterhood in a non-biological relationship between two women that I think somehow becomes like a biological relationship, in a way.

Pete  

Well, you know, you mentioned before about Israel and Judah having sort of a sister relationship, can you just—What the heck are you talking about here?

Amy  

Yeah, so that’s actually a great example of intentionality. Right? So first of all, I’m going to say this is, we’re now in the, as I said, in the realm of metaphor, and this metaphor you find in the prophets, in the prophetic books, and mostly in the prophets of Jeremiah and Ezekiel. So those are the two prophets that really talk metaphorically about Israel and Judah as being God’s wife, right? Wives. And Jeremiah and Ezekiel both present—you know, God is married first to Israel and then to Judah, he has these two wives—and Jeremiah is the first to present that they’re not just two wives of God, but that they are, in fact, sisters, and that Israel is the older sister and Judah is the younger sister. And Israel betrays God, behaves badly and needs to be punished, and is destroyed. I mean, that’s, the Assyrians come and destroy Israel. And Judah, the second wife, the younger sister, doesn’t learn from her elder sister, and imitates her. And the same thing happens. So, these are among the most disturbing passages in all of the Bible. They are very sexually explicit. These are very sexualized figures…

Pete  

Amy, can I just jump in here? 

Amy  

Yeah.

Pete  

Because I just, I just got done teaching this stuff to my undergrads. And one woman in the class asked us to stop reading. 

Amy  

Yes.

Pete  

It was difficult for her, so yeah, it…It’s just, I mean, what you’re saying is, I’ve experienced that very much so. Yeah, go ahead, please. Yeah.

Amy  

No, no, I have that experience a lot. And, you know, I struggle with that myself. I mean, to me, I’ve always been somebody who faces the darkness and engages with the darkness, and tries to understand it. But I have had that experience. And I, as I said, I think these are the most difficult passages that you can find. And many scholars—you know, folks now, readers—first of all, a lot of people don’t even know they exist, which is interesting. And I feel in some ways, my job as a teacher, and scholar is to make sure people know they exist. I mean, I think, I don’t want to ignore them. 

But there was a lot of attention in the last 30 years at looking at these passages—and you find them, just to be specific, you find them in Jeremiah chapters two and three, and then some other passages as well in Jeremiah. And then you really find them in Ezekiel in chapters 16 and 23. And these are just horrific passages. And many, many scholars, feminist biblical scholars in particular, have read these as actually kind of pornographic chapters. And that itself is very disturbing. But back to this question of intentionality, to me what’s interesting is that whether it comes from individual prophets, you know, whether we could say there was a figure, Jeremiah or Ezekiel, but there was intentionality in presenting Israel and Judah metaphorically as sisters, right? That did not have to happen.

Pete  

Mhmm.

Amy  

That’s a choice. So I find that really kind of interesting and to me, really does emphasize when I’m saying that there really is something specific about the anxieties that sisters introduce, right, the destabilizing issue factor of sisters, that I think these prophets are kind of capitalizing on.

Jared  

Is that why you would identify in the metaphorical sense, they would be one of these dangerous sisters, where they destabilize their houses, so to speak?

Amy  

Absolutely. I mean, the question then is, do they serve a purpose? That’s what I sort of feel like with someone like Lot’s daughters, you can see the purpose, right? With actually—I just, you know, throw this in this—with Saul’s daughter as well, Michal and Merab, it’s a paired sisterhood. They’re about weakening Saul’s household for the good of David’s household. That’s their function. They do that. So the question really is when you meet the sisters in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, are they introduced just to express anxieties? Or do they serve a purpose? Right? And that’s a really interesting question. I think my answer to that question would be they reflect anxieties. And the prophets use those anxieties as a kind of rhetorical strategy to disturb their audience. Right? They know the power of these images to unsettle. And so they use these figures to do just that to unsettle their audience.

Jared  

So there’s a pattern of, there’s these deep, narratival patterns where when we have sisters show up, there’s a destabilizing force. And part of that sounds like socio-cultural too, because they do represent a portal into families, right? Where they can bring a foreign person into the family through marriage, and that in itself can be destabilizing.

Amy  

Absolutely. I always like to say—and this is, you know, I mean, at some other time I’m happy to talk more broadly about women. But I think, you know, in some ways, everything I’m saying about sisters, you can think, you know, I think it helps us understand the role that women play. And, you know, one of the ways to sort of look at all female figures in the Bible, sort of as threshold figures, right? The sort of windows and doors, and that’s precisely right. They sort of stand on the thresholds of their family and that’s a position of vulnerability. 

And in fact, one of the things that’s sort of interesting, particularly if you go back—now, what I like to do, and what I think I do fairly well is, you know, I’m essentially a close reader, I’m an interpreter. That’s what I like to do. I find, you know, I like the close reading, I think the Bible text, as I said, is so beautifully constructed, intentionally constructed, you know, I find constantly even stories I know very well, I find new meaning. But, you know, it’s interesting to think that the role that doors, windows, play in narratives that feature women, that’s something that people should look for, and frankly, if you go back to the the story of Lot’s daughters, that’s a story about doorways and thresholds, and the household and protecting the house and sort of going with it, you know, moving from inside to outside spaces. This is also true with the story that we didn’t talk about, but Tamar—and this is not the Tamar that you meet in Genesis, but the Tamar that you meet in Samuel, who is David’s daughter, she’s a sister—in her story, you also have a lot of thresholds and sort of going inside and outside. So I think that sort of symbolizes the anxiety that sisters—but I would say even more broadly, women, daughters, in general—introduce into the narrative.

Jared  

There is so much to chew on, and unfortunately, we’re about out of time. But my last question is, you know, you talked about being a close reader of the text, and you’re picking up on a lot of these things. And for our listeners who want to learn some of the practices of how to be a closer reader of the text: What have you cultivated, to help people see things that maybe they can gloss over? Or if you grow up in a church or a religious tradition, sometimes it’s hard to read closely, because you kind of feel like you already know what’s there.

Amy  

So I would say, I mean, you know, I think this is actually the advantage that I have maybe, and scholars in general have, which is, you know, my facility with Hebrew. And I would encourage people—because I think some of the artistry, it’s not that it doesn’t translate, I think you can see it in translations as well, and especially good translations that pick up on, let’s say, repeated phrases that sort of help you see that the Bible is an intertextual text, that is what makes it great. I always say to my students, the more Bible you know, the richer it becomes, right, and you really can see the way it echoes its own stories. And the more you read it, the more you can see it. But I actually think that if you have the facility of Hebrew, it’s just that much easier because you really do see how it’s just baked into the language. There is a great deal of repetition, you know, certain words that appear, there are certain ways in which stories are opened and closed intentionally, and ways that stories are linked directly to other stories. I mean, there’s just, you can see the richness in the language. 

The other thing that I would say, which becomes very evident to the more comfort you have in the original language, is, you know, the Bible, unlike contemporary literature, is very sparse. I mean, here’s just a rule of thumb that, you know, all of your listeners should know. I mean, the Bible sort of uses language very carefully and when the Bible includes detail, you should pay attention, right? When it has like, specific detail, those are markers that you can say this is just not typical. Right, so it includes that kind of information when it describes a character. Right, that’s interesting. So you know, I think you have to be sensitive to that. But I would just encourage people to read, just keep reading. And as close as your readers can get to the original text, I think it just grows that much richer. 

Jared  

Yeah, as I often said, the scrolls weren’t cheap or easy. 

Amy  

Yeah.

Jared  

They didn’t write things down willy-nilly. 

Amy  

Yeah. 

Pete  

Amy  

Yeah.

Jared  

Pay attention. Well, thank you so much, Amy, for coming on and opening—again, it seems so funny that it’s like, we’re going to talk for 40 minutes about something that seems so narrow, and yet, it’s like we didn’t even have time to scratch the surface with you in just this one thing. 

Pete  

Right.

Jared  

So thanks again for talking about it and talking about it with such passion, because I think that’s infectious and I think that’s really good for people to hear and feel.

Amy  

My pleasure. Thank you.

Outro  

Jared  

Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you want to support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just want to give a little money, go to www.TheBibleForNormalPeople.com/give. 

Pete  

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Jared  

And lastly, it always goes a long way if you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show. 

Outro  

You’ve just made it through another episode of the Bible for Normal People! Don’t forget you can also catch the latest episode of our other show, Faith for Normal People, wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for Normal People podcast team: Brittany Prescott, Savannah Locke, Stephanie Speight, Natalie Weyand, Stephen Henning, Tessa Stultz, Haley Warren, Nick Striegel, and Jessica Shao.

Outro