Episode 60: Beau Underwood & Brian Kaylor – Christian Nationalism Across the Political Spectrum

Jared: You are listening to Faith for Normal People. The only other God-ordained podcast on the internet.

Pete: I’m Pete Enns. 

Jared: And I’m Jared Byas.

Pete: Hey folks, this weekend is July 4th, and in America, that’s a time to celebrate freedom with hot dogs and fireworks. But maybe it’s also a time to think about faith and politics. So, our July class is called “American Christianity: How Did We Get Here?”

Jared: It’s taught by Dr. Jemar Tisby, author of the New York Times bestselling book The Color of Compromise. On July 24th, from 8 to 9:30 PM Eastern Time, Jemar will walk us through the history of how Christianity in the U.S. got tangled up with race, power, and politics.

Pete: We’re going to talk about stuff like slaveholder religion, the religious right, and MAGA theology. Real light summer fare just in time for your family reunion. 

But we’ll also talk about how the black Christian tradition has consistently offered a more faithful, justice-centered vision of the Gospel all along.

This class is pay-what-you-can until the class ends. After that, it’s $25. And if you can’t make it live, no worries. You can buy it now and watch it back later at your convenience. Head to thebiblefornormalpeople.com/americanchristianity to sign up.

Jared: And if you want a warm up to that class, our previous class, “One Nation Under God” with Dr. Samuel Perry is available now for purchase, and we’re going to give you ten dollars off for the month of July with code JULY25. In this class, Dr. Perry breaks down how Christian nationalism uses the Bible to prop up some wild etiologies, including, yes, actual anti-democratic violence.

Pete: He also talks about Bible translation debates, MAGA Bibles, and more things we wish we were making up. 

Jared: So head to thebiblefornormalpeople.com/onenation to purchase the recording, and don’t forget to join us on July 24th from 8 to 9:30 PM Eastern Time for “American Christianity: How Did We Get Here?” with Jemar Tisby. 

Pete: And for the July 4th bundle, this week’s episode is on Christian nationalism. We’re talking Christian nationalism across the political spectrum with Beau and Brian.

Pete: Today on Faith for Normal People, we’re talking about how liberals can be Christian nationalists too with Beau Underwood and Brian Kaylor. 

Beau Underwood is Senior Minister at the Disciples of Christ and is a contributing editor to Word and Way. 

Jared: Brian Kaylor is a Baptist minister and president and editor-in-chief of Word and Way. He serves also as board treasurer for Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

Together, they’re authors of the book Baptizing America: How Mainline Protestants Helped Build Christian Nationalism, which is what we talk about today. As always, don’t forget to stay tuned at the end of the episode for quiet time.

Alright folks, let’s jump in. 

Brian: If you grew up in a white Christian Church in the United States, Christian nationalism to at least some degree was just in the air that we breathe. 

We so seamlessly merged, you know, American identities and Christian identities. Christian nationalism is like microplastics. I mean, there’s a little bit of it in all of us. And now we’re just trying to detox. 

Beau: At some point, people are gonna have to decide if they’re willing to throw democracy out for the sake of enforcing their beliefs on other people.

I think that’s a bad trade, but there’s far, there’s far more people willing to make it than I would’ve expected. 

Jared: Well welcome. This is a, a special episode. We don’t often have two guests on here, so welcome Brian and Beau for jumping on with us. We really appreciate it. 

Brian: Yeah, thanks so much for having us.

Beau: Glad to be here. 

Jared: Well, let’s, let’s jump, let’s jump into this and, and we often like to start with some definitions just so we have some clarity of what we’re talking about.

So we’re gonna talk about Christian nationalism today and maybe can you give us a definition and, and give it a, a generous definition, meaning people who, who fit that description, how would they describe Christian nationalism? 

Beau: Yeah, so when we’re talking about Christian nationalism, we’re really talking about the merging of sort of American and Christian identity, and I think those who would maybe use that, uh, term to describe themselves would say that, you know, I think these things go together pretty well, right?

To be a good American is to be a good Christian and vice versa. Of course, some of the critics see more problems and how those two identities relate, and they see that there’s some tensions there that need to be attended to if we’re going to be both supporters of a country and adherents to a faith tradition.

So when we talk about Christian nationalism, we’re really talking about how those two, uh, parts of ourselves, our, our citizenship, uh, in the United States and our, uh, identity as Christians go together. 

Jared: This is maybe a clunky way of saying this. What are some of those categories when we’re talking about merging what?

Like our beliefs about certain things? Like what is it that we’re trying to put together when we’re talking about Christian nationalism?

Beau: Yeah, I think what we’re talking in both cases is really an ideal, right? So we’re, it’s an ideology where we’re setting up like to be an ideal American is to be a certain brand of Christian.

And, uh, you know, a good Christian also is somebody who happens to be located here in America because of the way that America is a chosen country or, or God’s instrument for some purpose. So, they’re really being fused together in a way that’s reinforcing each other. And again, it problematically puts them beyond critique in a way that’s, you know, difficult.

But again, if we wanna give it a generous read, these are people who are saying, these are two identities that are very important to me. And I, I’m trying to, you know, use them both to understand myself and the world around me. 

Pete: I mean, they have, they have, uh, as we all do, pre-understandings maybe of what Christian means and what American means. And again, maybe in a generous way, they’re somewhat innocently maybe bringing these things together. And, uh, I, I don’t wanna put words in anyone’s mouth, but maybe even, uh, not, not super reflectively, not, not really conscious of the, um, you know, theological or biblical kinds of things that might come up when that kind of a merger.

Beau: Yeah, I think that’s right. There’s not a lot of critical analysis going on that’s interrogating these two identities, especially where we think there’s some tension points. 

Pete: Right. Well, Brian, let me ask you, um, you know, something that I’ve, I’ve heard many people talk about and, and they, they’re, I hear certain themes, but in, in your view, what are the roots like? Like how did this, what is it like, how did it begin? And I, I’ll say that what I have heard repeatedly, almost without exception, is that the ultimate roots of Christian nationalism are racism. So help, help us understand that. 

Brian: Yeah. So I’ll start with that, that latter part as a way of getting to then seeing how did we get to this conversation about Christian nationalism as a movement today. When we talk about Christian nationalism, it’s a shorthand, but when we’re in the United States context, it really is white Christian nationalism and, and we use that term and other scholars use that, that term that way for a couple of reasons.

So first of all, the sociological research shows a strong correlation between those that espouse Christian nationalism and those that hold what we would call racist positions such as opposition to interracial marriage, a lack of concern about police brutality, of people of color, a belief that actually it’s white people that are the real victims of discrimination in the United States on a whole lot of different categories.

Those that score really high on Christian nationalism scales, and the research from sociologists like Andrew Whitehead and Samuel Perry or Robby Jones at PRRI, they have, have constantly shown the strong connection between holding Christian nationalistic ideas, and then also holding opinions that would be at least racially insensitive, if not just outright racist.

And it makes sense when you think about it. Because the ideology of Christian nationalism is based at its foundation on this idea that we were formed as a Christian nation. Right. So that gets to the first part of your question. And if we were formed as a Christian nation, it was only a nation for white Christians. I mean, we were literally formed on the genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of Black Africans.

So by definition, groups of people were put to the side. We were founded as a white nation. I don’t think that sounds very Christian. But if it was a Christian nation, it was only a nation for white Christians. And so then throughout history, we see this debate. There has been this debate of do we wanna be a Christian nation or not?

Massachusetts Bay Colony was a Christian state, if you will. I mean, they were practicing what we would today call Christian nationalism. They were executing Quakers merely for being Quakers. They, they, they exiled Roger Williams and other religious dissenters. And so we have this debate about should church and state be united? Should the state enforce one religious creed?

Or should we see what Roger Williams did in, when he established Rhode Island, what James Madison and Thomas Jefferson later do in Virginia as they disestablish the Anglican Church? So this has been a constant debate, even among the quote, founding fathers disagree about whether or not we should be a Christian nation or not.

And then ever since then, we get these waves of Christian nationalism. In Baptizing America, we primarily focus most of our time on the last big wave of Christian nationalism, late forties throughout the 1950s, early 1960s. And then now we’re in another wave of white Christian nationalism in these last few years. And it has some important differences, but each wave is based on reading one side of the historical record that kind of highlights the Puritans over, and I say this as a Baptist myself, over the Baptist and the Quakers and the religious dissenters.

Pete: Yeah. Well, you know, um, I think that’s extremely helpful to me because, and I, I imagine to many, these are, this is a long story. This is not just something, and again, I would’ve said about forties and fifties, but this goes back, it’s baked into our DNA almost. It seems like it’s, it, it who we are is struggling with this problem.

Brian: Yeah. 

Pete: And I mean, that’s what it sounds like you’re saying. 

Brian: Yeah, exactly. So my favorite story in regard to this, so the founding era is, is a, a scene in Massachusetts, and it’s early in the, the foundation of the United States, Massachusetts. Most of the states are still having their state church.

Massachusetts is actually the last one to disestablish, long after the First Amendment has done it nationally. And there’s a moment early on where there is some Baptists that go to the leaders of Massachusetts trying to disestablish church and state. And the future president John Adams is one of the council members making this decision, and he says that there is more likely to be a change in the solar system than a disestablishment of church and state.

Now, I don’t know if he walked, I don’t know if he walked outside that night and looked very carefully at the stars because he lived to actually see the disestablishment, not only in the United States, but also in Massachusetts. But that’s how radical of an experiment this is. We tried in the United States was to separate church and state.

It’s, it was radical to someone like John Adams who thought, you can’t move the stars like that. 

Jared: I think that’s a really good historical perspective, um, on the, the race piece of it. And I wanna, I want to take a step back ’cause I’m trying to filter this through kind of my tradition and how I would’ve been raised to think about these kind of things.

And again, I think that’s all that’s historically accurate and true, but I don’t know if that’s in the consciousness of, of a lot of people who would, whether they’re explicit or implicitly practicing a sort of Christian nationalist faith expression. Um, and so I, I wonder if you could speak a little bit.

What I came up with was, for me growing up, the idea of Christianity was, or America was founded as a white Christian nation doesn’t much matter, uh, because there’s one truth, there’s one right way of doing this thing called life, right? There is a right way to express our Christian faith. There’s a right way to live, and the basis of the right way to live is the Bible. 

And, and so it’s a matter of, if there’s one truth, we’re all vying for what’s the right way to live. And if we say something like The 10 Commandments is the right way to live, it’s not so much I’m trying to be racist, it’s just that I’m trying to uphold truth. And it just so happens that I have that truth and it makes sense to me that everyone would want to fall in line and follow the truth.

So can you say a little bit more about that dynamic? Because again, not to deny, of course, the racist roots of it, but I think for a lot of people it stems most in this epistemological way, which I’ll raise the red flag for normal people myself and say, what I mean by that is that it’s a, a mindset of what we think about truth.

And what we think about universal truth or absolute truth. And I think it’s hard for people to see outside of that. Once you can see outside of it, you start to see the racism and the privileging of certain mindsets. But if you don’t have that starting place, I think it’s really hard to get there.  

Beau: So I really enjoyed listening to the only God-ordained podcast, uh, out there. And on that, uh, podcast, I’ve heard a lot of different scholars, the Angela Parkers of the world, who have helped us understand how we’ve privileged certain readings of the Bible and consider them normative when in reality they’re only one way of reading scripture. I think similarly here, Christian nationalism privileges a particular way of being Christian, a particular way of being American, and it puts that up as normative. 

And that, again, has been a sort of conservative white male, uh, power dominance in our society. And so what it’s trying to do is saying like, this way of structuring our society, um, that privileges this particular group of people is normative, is the way to be American, is the way to be Christian.

And, it’s conflating in some sense that patriarchy, that, you know that, that the racism in our society, and conflating it to those universal truths.

I think that there might be those who wanna make the claim that there’s one way to do it, but I think just as we understand there’s multiple ways to read scripture, what we’re coming to understand in our pluralist society, there is multiple ways to be Christian and there’s multiple ways to be American, and that’s the beauty of the country and the beauty of the faith.

But we have to move past that idea that there’s only one way to do it that everybody else has to conform to. 

Brian: Well said. And I would add there, it, I mean I, I also grew up in a conservative Southern Baptist, you know, context and have now switched over to more the mainline where, whereas Beau’s been in mainline life, his whole, his whole life. And growing up in that context and now looking back on that and then looking at other churches that I’ve been a part of as an adult, one of the things that I’ve come to understand about Christian nationalism is that if you grew up in a white Christian Church in the United States, Christian nationalism to at least some degree was just in the air that we breathe. 

We so seamlessly merged, you know, American identities and Christian identities. Christian nationalism is like microplastics. I mean, there’s a little bit of it in all of us. And now we’re just trying to detox.

I mean, Beau and I both acknowledge that we have participated in Christian nationalism in our own ministries and that we’re still learning even after years of writing about this, still learning to separate, like what, what was American that we were taught and what was actually gospel. And we were taught that they were the one and the same, but now we’re realizing that they weren’t.

Pete: Well, I mean, in your book, uh, your Baptizing America, you certainly make a big point about something that I, I mean, when I first looked at it, I said, what? Mainline Protestantism and the role that mainline Protestantism has played in Christian nationalism. And I, I, I think we would benefit a lot if you could unpack those issues for us.

‘Cause that seems, um, I think counterintuitive, I’m gonna, I’m gonna guess for, especially in recent years, how people think of Christian nationalism. 

Jared: And, and maybe can you just start with a definition of mainline Protestantism, because that may be a phrase that people are unfamiliar with. 

Beau: Yeah. So when we think about American Christianity, we can broadly divide it up into thirds, right?

You’ve got sort of American Catholicism, American evangelicalism, and then American mainline, mainliners. And those mainliners, you know, we can measure them according to what denomination they belong to, right? And there’s seven traditional seven sisters of the mainline. Um, and there’s also just a way of thinking about ’em, they tend to be more ecumenical, more inclusive, more willing to work across denominational lines in terms of common witness. It’s sort of a mindset or an ethos, more embracing of modern science, historical-critical reading of the Bible. Lots of different ways of approaching the faith that differentiates them from the other traditions in some ways.

Um, I think that when we talk about, um, the mainline church’s contributions that right now we’re in a period where everyone wants to blame the evangelicals for all this Christian nationalism stuff, and there’s enough blame to go around there. But what they miss is the way that the mainline tradition, a tradition, as Brian mentioned, I’ve been a part of, we love, we cherish. But really gave these evangelicals a lot of the data points, right? So when the pseudo-historian David Barton goes out there and talks about America being found as a Christian nation, he’ll point to things like In God We Trust being the national motto where he’ll talk about “under God” being the pledge of allegiance, he’ll point to all these things that to him demonstrate, wow, we are a Christian nation.

And all of those things ended up, uh, where they are or they, they happened because of the mainline Protestant tradition. So we always like to tell the story of how, um, “under God” got in the Pledge of Allegiance and I’ll let Brian, uh, uh, bring this up. ’cause he, he rehearses the story really well. 

Brian: I mean, to me, the “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance is the, is the best example of what Mainline Protestants did. And I like it for two reasons. One is just really easy and obvious, like we know why “under God” is in the Pledge of Allegiance and it happened 70 years ago. Uh, in, in 1954, after about 62 years of the Pledge allegiance being God-less, uh, had been written, uh, by a Baptist socialist, um, you know, uh, an actual socialist, not just the, the term get gets thrown around against some Baptist pastors today.

Uh, Roger Stone called me a Marxist pastor one time, so, I mean, that gets thrown around. But like, Francis Bellamy actually said, “Hey, I’m a socialist.” He was like, vice president of the Christian Socialist, you know, organization. But God wasn’t in the pledge for 62 years, and then there’s a Presbyterian pastor in DC who knows that Dwight D. Eisenhower is going to be in church because it’s the Sunday closest to Lincoln’s birthday.

Lincoln had gone to that church during his time in the White House, and so he was gonna go sit in Lincoln’s pew on Lincoln Sunday to hear a sermon, and so Reverend Docherty decides to preach about why under God should be added to the Pledge of Allegiance. He makes the whole case very, in very Christian nationalism terms, he talks about the history and the founding of our nation.

Why this is the definitive nature of America, especially against those Godless communists in the Soviet Union. He calls the Cold War a theological battle and Armageddon, right? All of this, and really loads it up and it works. Like, four months later on Flag Day, June 14th, 1954, Eisenhower is signing the bill, adding “under God” to the Pledge of Allegiance.

I mean Beau and I are just happy when someone remembers our sermons the next week. But I mean, this was an amazing sermon. So I mean, I’ll give him, like, true props for what he was able to accomplish with that sermon. But the other reason why I like the story is because he says the quiet part out loud, which gets us straight into the issue of Christian nationalism.

So he’s going along, giving his sermon and he is like, nah, some people probably can’t say the pledge if we add “under God” into it. And then, but then he’s not concerned about them. ’cause he says that an atheistic American is a contradiction in terms and adds that they are spiritual parasites, right? So this is that fusing and confusing American and Christian identities.

He’s defining someone, you can only be a good American if you can pledge allegiance under God, if you believe in God. And that was a problem then. But it was 2-3% of Americans didn’t believe in God. Today we’re talking more like 20% claim no religious affiliation. And so in our more pluralistic democracy, this type of Christian nationalism is even more divisive, even more, uh, disruptive and even more problematic.

And so now when, as Beau said, when conservative Evangelicals and Pentecostals are saying, we’re Christian Nation, here’s our proof, well, it’s us good mainline Protestants who created that, and I mean, sometimes us liberal, mainline Protestants. Reverend George Docherty marches with Martin Luther King Jr. after Bloody Sunday in Selma, he has King come and preach in his white congregation. Docherty preaches against the Vietnam War while Secretary of Defense McNamara is in the congregation. I mean, he’s a prophetic figure in a lot of ways. But he also wanted us to be a Christian nation.

Pete: So I, I want to ask something. This is really sparking something in my mind, and I’m, I’m not asking this to be divisive. I’m asking really for clarification. What- do you see differences between, let’s say, mid 20th century mainline instigation of Christian na- or articulation of Christian nationalism? And then I, I guess what it’s become, if, if, if it’s okay to put it that way, more in the hands of the evangelical slash uh, I would say more fundamentalist movement.

Beau: Yeah. Uh, we, I think there’s definitely some differences both in terms of where the country is now and the kind of Christian nationalism that was being promoted. So with the country, obviously we’re a lot more pluralistic now, both racially, ethnically, and religiously. So just those, these exclusionary practices that Christian nationalism promotes, they’re more obvious, they, they harm more people.

Uh, the country has shifted and, and that sometimes that’s created an awareness of why this is a problem. And then again, those mainline Protestants really kind of thought they were doing the country a service, right? They thought God and country went together really easily and we could kind of call it maybe even a soft Christian nationalism.

Whereas what we’re seeing today is much more pugnacious. It’s much more, you know, you’re with us or you’re against us. It’s, it’s really more about drawing boundaries and saying this is what, this is what it means to be a good Christian. Anybody who doesn’t follow these lines is on the outside of the church.

Um, it’s much more, uh, wanting to sort of use religion to divide than I think the mainliners were intending to in the mid-20th century. So I do think it’s intensified in some ways and it’s become more divisive in how it’s being wielded by those religious figures who are trying to promote it. 

Pete: The nation has changed, like out from under. You know, the, the, the, it was easier in a sense to do this maybe 70 years ago.

Brian: And, and because the nation has changed, Christian nationalism today is more violent. Because they can’t win in the ballot box like they could have in the, in the fifties on this type of issue. And so, but we would still argue that even though mainline Protestants then, and even to some degree now, we talk about this in, in church liturgy and, and, and, and songs and worship services, like still practice some Christian nationalism, and sure, it’s a kinder, friendlier, fuzzier version, you know, but it’s still Christian nationalism, like it’s still a distortion of the gospel.

It still mixes things up in some problematic ways that have discipled people and maybe helped set the stage for something like January 6th. 

Jared: Can you, can you maybe give us an alternative? Oh, I, I’m gonna paint a picture because I think when we talk about with elections and how people start articulating why they believe the way they do it, it almost seems a challenge to escape Christian nationalism.

So maybe we can paint some alternative ways of thinking about this, because no matter what political persuasion you have, if you’re a Christian, it seems like you would be utilizing that to frame why you will vote on certain issues. So is that, are we saying that’s a problem or are we saying to, to, uh, then require other people to follow that?

But it, it gets really muddled in my head how we, because I, I, I would see people voting on immigration, let’s say, in a particular way because they may be more liberal Christians who would then read the Bible in a way that would sort of have this, uh, they, in some ways they’re, they’re putting modern issues back onto the Bible and saying, see, the Bible really does endorse a more liberal, progressive politic.

Just in the same way that more conservative Christian nationalists would say it endorses this kind of politic, but it feels like it’s just coming from a natural, well, if this is what I believe about the Bible and this is how I express my faith, I would take that to the voting booth and and to my politics.

Beau: Yeah, so I think that the opposite of Christian nationalism is not a secular public square, right? We’re not saying Christians and others should get outta the public square. What we’re saying is in a democracy, uh, we need to be careful about trying to seize the reins of power in order to coerce other people to, into our religious beliefs and practices, right?

So, what we’re actually encouraging is, is this idea that, you know, everybody’s rights are being respected, including the rights of everybody to be heard in the public square, and that we want people of all faiths and people of all consciousness to show up and be who they are without trying to force themselves onto somebody else.

I think the, the most difficult questions we’ve gotten in doing these interviews around the book was somebody saying, well, was Martin Luther King, Jr. a Christian nationalist? We had to stop and think about that, and I, you know, responded that King was trying to really expand who could belong in democratic society.

He was trying to make sure more people had their dignity respected, their rights respected. And, and they could participate fully in our society, whereas Christian nationalism tries to restrict how many people get to fully participate. And that’s the danger, right, is that trying to use faith as a weapon to exclude people from democratic life.

Brian: It, it might be helpful to think about a different context and then we’re not even thinking about our own parties and candidates. So, I mean, Russia right now is a Christian nationalistic state. The Russian Orthodox Church, the Russian government, uh, are in cahoots. They both get benefits from this relationship.

The Russian Orthodox Church got God put in the Constitution. They get special economic rights and privileges, like it’s stuff like special rights to sell like limousines and cigarettes, you know, classic denominational theological issues, right? It gets all these extra rights and privileges in Russia, but it doesn’t mean that just because it’s a Christian nationalistic state, that if you’re a Christian, then therefore you have extra power and privilege in Russia.

While the most persecuted religious group in Russia are Jehovah’s Witnesses, the second most persecuted group are Baptists. And third are Pentecostals, because they’re the wrong type of Christian. And I’m talking about, like, hundreds of Baptists and Pentecostals every year since 2017 when Putin signed an anti-evangelism, and anti-foreign missionary law, hundreds every year are being arrested, fined, and even imprisoned.

So that’s the same thing we see with Christian nationalism in the United States, is are we talking about only a few people or are we actually talking about a full democracy for everyone? Which is a, which is itself a new experiment. I mean to to, to the question of King. I mean, we don’t really have a democracy in the United States until 1965. Until everyone can actually vote, we’re not a democracy. So this is still very much a new experiment, and we see people pushing back. They don’t want us to be a democracy. They say, this is God’s will, right? This is what God has said, and I am the arbiter of the one theological truth, and therefore, why would we put it up for a vote? 

We don’t want democracy. Democracy and Christian nationalism do not work together, especially in a pluralistic society.

Jared: Mm. And that’s because especially, yeah. As you say, pluralistically, as the demographics of America change, the chance that we have a Christian in power gets lessened. And again, the generous definition of that is, and we think that’s bad for the country if there isn’t a Christian, if Christians aren’t in power, we believe that’s bad for the country.

Which given that, there are still, that’s still collateral damage of this feeling of exclusion when all the people in power are of one denomination. 

Beau: Yeah. And I think if, if, again, I, I think you’re right that there are people who would make that argument and believe it sincerely. I think the pushback then becomes, look at your own faith tradition, right?

When we have Good Friday, we look at the cross, we see the state using its power to crucify the Messiah. I think Christians should be the first people to be a little skeptical of, you know, the way that government power is being used to coerce other people. 

Pete: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The, again, I’m putting some pieces together here, but it seems you could make a case that there could be a really, really good Christian nationalism.

Right. It depends on what kind, like you said before, what type of Christianity are you promoting? And I can see, you know, um. I’m trying to think of some names, but, uh, people, generous-minded public leaders who are Christian, who say, listen, this is to make things more inclusive. It’s to allow, um, Muslims to worship, to allow Jews to.

It’s just we’re one big family here, and that is our vision of Christianity, which is a more liberal vision, of course. Um, I wouldn’t mind living in a country like that. I’m not sure I’d wanna ever call it Christian nationalism, but it’s, it is, um, another way of bringing the Christian faith to bear on how we live as human beings and this particular patch of land we’re in.

Brian: Yeah, I mean it’s like going to the ice cream shop. I mean, there’s definitely some flavors of Christian nationalism that are better than others, and so I’m like, like a Reverend George, you know George Docherty, who gets “under God” put in the Pledge of Allegiance. I would prefer his version of Christian nationalism where he’s anti-war and he believes in, you know, racial equality.

But the problem is, it is still Christian nationalism. He was, he was still conflating and confusing some things, and I think even when it starts out with good intentions, it’s never worked. It’s in, in, in all of human history it’s never worked where we’ve put church and state together and it’s actually, it’s actually been sustainable and worked together.

I mean, Tony Campolo, I think, you know, has always said it best that the mixing church and state is like mixing ice cream and manure. Right. It doesn’t hurt the manure, but it sure messes up the ice cream. I mean, and that’s what church state separation has always been about, right? Is protecting the sanctity of the church and then also providing a better and safer government for all people.

Jared: But maybe another way of saying that too, is what I’m hearing is, is the engine by which we are motivated to pursue justice, pursue love, pursue inclusion, pursue policies that are, are protecting citizens, um, or protecting just in, people in general. If you get there because your, your faith motivates that, that’s fine.

If you get there because your secular humanism motivates that, that’s fine. It’s, it’s not so much, you know, that’s all fine and good, but it has to be toward that end. If it’s an end that excludes or harms or leaves people out or marginalizes, then again maybe the kind of the ends justify the means a little bit in that sense of it doesn’t really matter.

We, I would hope that everybody has a particular thing that motivates them toward those things. For me, it’s my Christian faith, but that doesn’t mean that I’m then legislating that everyone needs to abide by the same rules that I do. 

Brian: I would also say it matters how we make the arguments in the public square in a pluralistic society.

So, like as a very practical example to your, to your question Jared, is, you know, when I, I go testify frequently in the Missouri House of Representatives and Missouri Senate on various issues, often church state issues, but sometimes on other topics. And so I’ve gone and testified on capital punishment bills, and my Christian faith, I would say is part of why I am opposed to the use of the death penalty.

And I have no problem like laying out the Bible verses in a sermon to a church and saying, this is why I believe capital punishment is wrong, why I believe we as Christians should be opposed to its use. But when I go and speak to the lawmakers, even though most of them do claim to be Christian, not all of them, I don’t, I don’t cite my, I don’t cite scriptures.

I don’t tell them I’m here because Jesus says capital punishment is bad, and you should believe that too. I go and make arguments as to why they should vote for a certain bill that would, that would work regardless of what their religious beliefs are. I’m trying to make the argument, so even though it motivates me to go, I don’t expect them to adopt my religious perspective to vote the same way that I want them to vote.

Pete: Right, and And if you have an understanding of the Christian faith that it does matter that you’re a Christian or not, you know, like Jared was saying before, right? Like that, well, there’s one truth I. Right. So, um, I mean there are certain brands of Christian nationalism, which is what we’re seeing today, very much that you-

Jared: Well, I mean, even the extreme version of that is, um, if you’re not a Christian, you have very loose morals and you don’t have a basis for any true morality.

And so, if you aren’t a Christian, we’re gonna be a, when people say a Godless nation, they have this idea that we’re gonna be, everything is permissible. We’re gonna be allowed to murder, there’s gonna be no rules. That Christianity is the religion of law and order in a way that allows for peaceable civil society.

And my tradition would’ve painted it very starkly that way. So there is a, I think, a fear, whenever the alternative to Christian nationalism is, uh, violence and orderlessness and like no rules and no justice. If that’s what we’re presented with, which again, in my tradition, that’s what I was presented with.

Either we have a Christian nation or we have a nation of complete unrest, chaos and injustice and chaos. Then I’m gonna go with, you know, I’m gonna go with Christian nationalism. 

Beau: But what’s interesting about the logic of that argument, right, is that then it, it does end up justifying violence, right? So in order to create a law and order nation that doesn’t spiral out of control and become a war of all against all, we have to use violence to enforce this way of being Christian, right?

So, I mean, even it, it ends up sort of turning on itself. Uh, what I think we’re worried about, uh, as again, small-d democrats, is that we don’t want anybody’s ability to belong and participate in society to depend upon their religious identity or the lack thereof. And I think for Christians, so then the question becomes, what argument do we have theologically to support democracy?

And for me it’s this idea that, you know, democracy allows for the flourishing of as many people as possible, right? And I believe that as a pastor, that God desires a flourishing of all of us and democracy is what’s, what makes that possible to, to the greatest extent? And so I have no problem embracing democracy, even if it means my theological views aren’t gonna be enshrined to law all the time because I know that it’s gonna allow the most people to flourish.

And that’s what I think God desires for the world. 

Pete: Right? The, the thing is, I mean, I, I Amen to that. Uh, I can hear people saying, well, you’re a liberal. Course you’re gonna say that, right? That, that’s your view of Christianity is I’m not, I’m just describing what people would say, right? Um. You know, uh, uh, you, you said before that, you know, the, the logical next step is there’d be violence.

And there are Christians out there who say, well, obviously it’s in the Bible, right? Have you seen the Canaanite massacre? Right? I mean, this, this is what you, Ananias and Sapphira, and this, this is what God does. He strikes people down and we might have to help that along a little bit. 

Of course, that’s deplorable, and, but, but you see that, that’s part of the tension, I think, that the Bible is, like you said before, I think it was you, Brian, who said, it’s read very selectively. Um, but I, I find it, it’s also not just read selectively, but it’s read through the lens of what people think. Like America, capitalistic, consumeristic, imperialistic. Right? That, that’s, that’s who we, we’re a Christian Nation, this is what we do.

Therefore we’re going to, um, read scripture through that lens and justify slavery by reading the story of Noah and the ark and, and the curse of Ham, you know, which is a famous argument going back to who knows how long. Um, I, I, I find the whole thing very messy. You know this, to disentangle this and, and, and moving forward, Jared, I, I mean like, okay, well how fix it? 

How do we fix this? How do we change it? What can we do? Yeah. Right. That, to me, it always comes down to that. We can argue hermeneutically, theologically in terms of American history, and I think we should, and it may take generations for this to sort of seep in, but to be very conscious of our roots, to be very conscious of our history as a country and try to change things, but, I, that’s, I don’t, what steps do you take to make that happen? 

Beau: So we set up this book intentionally to help mainline churches, right? Because we know this problem can feel so overwhelming, so big. How on earth can we solve something? Uh, you know, the magnitude of Christian nationalism. And so what we’ve seen to mainline churches is start with yourselves.

Start with the churches where you have influence. You know, the large evangelical church up the street from my congregation, they don’t care what I think. They’re never gonna invite me to preach. They’re not gonna listen to me, but my congregation will. So let’s start with ourselves. Let’s root out what we can as far as the way we participate in this problem.

And by addressing it, we lessen the amount of Christian nationalism in society overall. And we hopefully create a compelling witness that looks different from that church up the street that people who don’t want a faith that looks like Christian nationalism would get excited about. So there’s this kind of subversive evangelism to this, right?

Pete: I don’t know. That means I have to change though. I’d rather just change everybody else. Right? 

Beau: That’s right. And that’s the problem, right? So many of us wanna just scream on social media and say, well, it’s their fault. Right? And that makes us feel good, you know, it’s cathartic, but it doesn’t actually change anything.

So our book is really an encouragement for the mainline church, more progressive church to, to see where we’re still complicit in all of this. You know, we know how to do this with race. We know how to do this with sexism. We, we’ve interrogated ourselves, you know, for those societal sins. But there’s work to still do on Christian nationalism, and we need to start doing it.

In terms of how we get to the bigger question, um, I’m tempted just to kick it to Brian, but I’ll say this, which is, um, you know, we have to really again, get back to this idea of how much do we believe in democracy. I mean, this experiment has only endured in part because we’ve become more democratic over time.

We, but more and more people participate and enjoy the rights and the fruits of democracy, and we have to be willing to defend that, Christians and non-Christians, because we believe it’s the best way to live together as a people. And at some point, people are gonna have to decide if they’re willing to throw democracy out for the sake of enforcing their beliefs on other people.

I think that’s a bad trade, but there’s far, there’s far more people willing to make it than I would’ve expected. 

Brian: Yeah. I, I’m with you Pete. I’d rather stand up and just be, thank God, thank you, God, that I’m not like those insurrectionists on January 6th. I’m not like those Christian nationalists over there.

And then I can avoid, ignore all of my own problems in my own church and my own tradition. We, we don’t have to think about the flag in the sanctuary and the hymns that we sing on the 4th of July Sunday, and all of these other ways that we are mixing these two identities and pretending they’re the same.

Even though Jesus told us you cannot serve two masters. It just can’t be done. And we’ve been trying for way too long.

Jared: Yeah. And I, I think there is too, you know, maybe as we, as we wrap up our time here, you can speak to I, I, I agree with that. I, I think being able to address it on our own is a really good, uh, next step, like, let’s look in the mirror. Let’s take that, take stock of that. But as we interact with, you know, whatever the next, uh, six months to a year brings in terms of, uh, political conversations, as we interact with people that would have a different understanding and, and would in some ways, again, maybe not explicitly, but implicitly endorse a sort of Christian nationalism.

What are ways to be able to approach it that doesn’t feel antagonistic, it doesn’t feel like gotcha moments, but truly engages in a way that, again,  I hold out hope that for the people in my tradition growing up, if we had been able to articulate it in a different way, to be able to say, you can hold onto this, you can be motivated by your Christian faith that can guide your decisions. That’s not a problem. 

It’s when we overstep that and we get to this point. So is there a way we can maximize step A to B and minimize that B to C conclusion that we’re coming to for how this plays out? So do you have any thoughts on how to engage people who think differently than we do in a way that that does, it builds bridges, but it’s not, uh, it’s not just compromising our positions.

Beau: I think that what we want to really do from a Christian standpoint is again, let the church be the church. So I love to tell the story of, you know, we were all outraged, uh, when Donald Trump, uh, started selling the God Bless USA Bible, right? Everybody got, oh my gosh, why? You know, this is so obscene and absurd and it was. But back in the early 1950s when the National Council of Churches produced the revised standard version of the Bible, they took the very first copy down to the White House, met Harry Truman, and had a huge, uh, you know, ceremony in the Rose Garden where Truman endorsed their Bible. And I think both of those situations, we should be asking, why do we care whether the president endorses our Bible or not?

Right? What religious authority does the president of the United States have? He’s not a bishop, right? He’s not a, or she is not, you know, somebody who has any sort of say in the way our churches are run, why are we looking to the president for endorsements of our Bible? So I think we need to really start with this question of what is the church? What is the church supposed to be doing in the world? 

And let’s get back to that, right? And let’s stop worrying about letting the church try to take over the state or the state try to take over the church. One of the things I always remind people of with church and state separation, right, is as much about protecting the church from the state as it is the state from the church. And it started as a Christian idea. And there’s a lot more wisdom to it than a lot of people realize today. 

Brian: And then I would add Jared, when pastors asked me like, how do I start preaching about Christian nationalism? And maybe not even use the term initially because it, it brings a lot of controversy and baggage, as I always say, the opposite of Christian nationalism is a global faith.

And, and we started this, this conversation, if you ask like Christian nationalists, how would they define themselves? And you’ll hear people who use the title, I’m a Christian Nationalist. And they will say the opposite of nationalism is globalism. And I agree. And I think Jesus was a pretty globalist guy.

Right. And so that’s what I think we can do in our churches to, to do the theological kind of pushback, is to help our people see that this thing that we follow means that we are in communion with the people on the other side of that manmade border. And so then when politicians start demonizing immigrants or start getting, wanting us to go to war, to fight people on the other side of that manmade border who might be Christians.

We’re like, wait a minute, but what, what if we saw them not as non-Americans, but what if we saw them as our neighbors? And, and that global aspect of our faith is, I think, the antidote to Christian nationalism. And we need more of a highlight of, what does it mean to be in communion with Christians at various places around the globe.

And so that’s what I encourage pastors to do is, I mean, anytime something happens in the world in the news, there are probably Christians there. Even if it’s as small as when we pray during the, you know, Sunday service and then, you know, maybe at times it comes up in the sermon as well. But this global faith is the way that we can help people realize that there’s more to Christianity than red, white, and blue.

Pete: It’s, it’s, uh, a, the modern version of, and who is my neighbor, right? And, and it’s, puts it in a very different context. 

Jared: Well, thank you so much for jumping on with us, Brian and Beau, and uh, yeah, just your articulations of everything were, were very helpful. So thanks again for jumping on. 

Brian: Thanks so much for having us.

Beau: Thanks for having us. 

Jared: And now for quiet time.

Pete: With Pete and Jared. 

Alright, so we’re talking about Christian nationalism, that was, you know, a scintillating topic that keeps on giving. But um, are there ways in your experience that maybe Christian, your Christian identity was shaped by some sense of Christian nationalism?

Jared: Yeah. I mean this is, it’s not subtle at all. I mean, for me it was all over the place in terms of, um, you know, the idea of my faith being shaped by a national identity. I grew, I grew up in Texas, I grew up Southern Baptist. I grew up, um, with a, uh, particular flair of charismatic, uh, faith tradition that was really about End Times.

So America, like, played a central role in the narrative of God’s cosmic plan. Um, and so for me, we were like living in the last days whereby America was going to- the idea of like the antichrist, uh, was wrapped up in the politics of the day. And clearly the Antichrist is gonna be a Democrat.

And not only that, but the Antichrist is gonna be American, I guess. Because we were so focused on our own country. So it, yeah, it was for me, national identity, being American and being Christian, were not really that different of things. Um, it was a cultural identity as much as it was a religious identity. 

Pete: And it was so assumed.

Jared: Right. Oh yeah. 

Pete: It wasn’t like they were touting like, we will now tie together the, the gospel and, and our national identity. It’s just like, that’s just. This is what it is.  

Jared: Yeah. I mean, you say the Pledge of Allegiance on July 4th. You know, Patriotism Sunday or whatever it is. And I was like, yeah, that’s, that’s just the way it goes.

So mine were super overlapping. What about for you? 

Pete: Yeah. I mean, now that you mention, I, I was thinking like, I’m not sure there’s too much, but the more you talk, it’s like, oh yeah, it was there. In New Jersey, but not in Texas. Right. But I, uh, the church that I went to, it was, it was a nice church. I was there for a couple, three, four years.

It was a Nazarene church and um, very much End Times kinda stuff. You know, and the Antichrist and the countdown for whatever, 40 years since Israel became a nation. All this kind of stuff you get from the Bible somehow. But it was just sort of understood and it was a very American-centric way of talking about this ancient Iron Age, first century, second Temple text, you know? 

And of course we’re always trying to adapt it to our own existence, but you know, this is, we just sort of assumed. You know, and, and, and I, you know, I, I have been a part of churches, again, these are good people, but you know, there’s, you know, the Christian flag on one side and the American flag on the other, and 4th of July, celebrating 4th of July in church.

And I ask myself, is that, is that wrong? It, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I’ll say that. You know, because I, again, this, I think being transcendent in a sense, transcending those issues in church, I think is personally, I think is very important to do that. To, just to put, put that, it’s sort of like in, in, in Paul’s day, you know, you, you may be somebody’s servant during the week, but in God’s eyes you’re, you’re the same.

So you put aside some of those cultural issues. And, and, and you, you act differently. Um, at least one day reminding yourself of a better way. And, and so I think that’s lost a lot.

Jared: We talked about this with, uh, Lee Camp in, in our episode with Lee, and it ties into this, uh, conversation we had with Beau and Brian and, around Christian nationalism.

How do you distinguish between getting involved in politics, because politics and morality and religion are a Venn diagram. Yeah. You can’t extract them necessarily. So when we say we don’t, we wanna have a separation of church and state, or when we talk about Christian nationalism and the nuances then of how do we engage politically without falling prey to, like, a Christian nationalistic way of doing it? How do you parse all that out? 

Pete: I, I, with great difficulty, to be honest. Mm-hmm. Um, I don I have not figured that out, but I, I, you know, I, the, the extremes are, I think wrong. You should never be involved in anything politically. Well, this is how people live.

You know, it’s important. 

Jared: Yeah. The broad sense of politics. It’s almost unavoidable. 

Pete: Yeah. And for things like, you know, helping to, and poverty. But you want, you wanna be a part of these kinds of things and maybe trying to bring peace where we can. And politicians are supposed to do that sort of thing.

So it’s not like never do that, but it’s not like, I am here to make America into something that is overtly Christian, right? And everyone has to obey that. So it’s somewhere in the middle that is probably, you know, whatever that big middle is. But I’ve thought about that too, like, you know, should Christians be involved in politics? Yeah. 

Should they run for office? Sure, why not? But if, if there is an agenda there to essentially seize power, to seize political power in the name of Jesus. I just, I just have major alarms going off in my head. You can serve Jesus as best as you can in your position, but to, again, it’s that word power that comes to mind.

Jared: Yeah. I was gonna say power and loyalty. So I think now being a part of an Anabaptist church, in some ways, my upbringing in terms of national identity and now are like diametrically opposed in the Christian tradition. Where it is like as Anabaptist, there’s like no oath taking. There is no loyal- like, it would be anathema to have an American flag in an Anabaptist church. 

And so, part of it, as I’ve reflected on that, I think there’s a power for sure, um, element to that, but also like, where’s your loyalty lie? Right. And is it to a political system like, is our identity, I am a Democrat, or I am a Republican, or I am an American?

And how does that show up, that loyalty show up in our day-to-day life versus I’m a follower of Christ. And I think that’s, for me, been a helpful litmus test of, it’s not about whether you engage in the process, whether you’re, uh, you know, voting or whether you’re, um, uh, protesting, and engaging in the, the, you know, calling up your representatives and engaging the political process in that way feels neutral. It is, where is the power and where is the loyalty? 

Pete: It’s one of those things, if you cross the line, you, you sort of should know it. I just, it’s hard to always know where that line is. It’s not an easy issue. And the thing that strikes me too is how this is not a new issue. That’s something that, that came across to me in, in the interview. And also just doing some reading over the, the intervening centuries that went by since we did that episode, when we were 12, I think.

Yes. Um, but, uh, you know, and the, um. It, it makes a difference in how I even process this issue today, thinking that this has been around, this is baked into the American experience. There’s no question. And but you see, that raises the question like, okay, that’s just what we do. What’s wrong with it?

Jared: Right, right, yeah.

Pete: Or can we, are we more, like, aware now and saying it’s really a problem with this? You know, and so should they pray, you know, before, you know, the, a session of Congress opens up. Should they do that sort of thing. And I don’t know. I, I don’t think so. 

Jared: What if, what if you did it in a way that was more ecumenical, where other faiths got to be represented as a part of that process?

Pete: That won’t happen. 

Jared: I didn’t ask what would happen. I’m asking would you? How would you feel about that?

Pete: That’d be fine. More, I mean, and some of the prayers are a little more generic too.You know, and, and. Um, and I, I, you know, I think if, if that is a, a, a a, um, an intentional way of expressing the plurality of religious experience in America, I’d say that’s a great idea. Uh, but I, you know, I just, I think-

Jared: ‘Cause that’s part of the, the Christian nationalism is this privileging of Christianity over and against other religious expressions that becomes problematic. 

Pete: And which is again, part of the American experience. That’s how we started, I guess, in a way. Uh, so what about the one last thing, what about, um, awareness of, that we’re global citizens. And how, how does that maybe affect how we can think about this idea of Christian nationalism? 

Jared: Yeah, I mean, if I can be honest—

Pete: Please do. 

Jared: I think I struggle with this—um, this one time I’ll be honest, most of the time I’m, I’m not. 

Pete: You’d be a good politician anyway.

Jared: Right? Speaking of, uh, I think the, I struggle with this one because it’s hard. I mean, you can take the boy outta Texas, but it’s hard to take the Texas outta the boy. Like there is probably a little bit of a knee jerk of patriotism there, that I feel like I don’t know how to swim in these waters. Like am I just justifying it or is it like, is it okay to love your country of origin as long as it is not love to the exclusion of other things and other people and other ideologies and like, because I feel like right now it seems there’s been a divide. 

I mean, a good example of this is like the American flag feels like it is a Republican symbol now. Right? Like, I have people, you know, a lot of my friends who are Democrats or on the left or whatever wouldn’t be caught dead with an American flag on their car. Because it’s symbol-

Pete: And it’s not because they hate America. 

Jared: But it, maybe it is, maybe it is because it’s like, because we’ve, we’ve tied these things together where it is like, well, to fight for justice is to hate America, or, like, that’s what I, exactly what I’m questioning. I’m trying to problematize that. I was like, what? Why can, can you love a bigger country of origin without hating? I mean, it’s sort of like, um, just because I’m, I’m married to someone or I’m partners with you in this, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s to the exclusion of others.

And so I, I think I’m wrestling with that, but I also am fair, fairly aware that I’m, I don’t want to just also justify the fact that like, I, I don’t know. I grew up in Texas and very pro-America, so maybe I’m also just trying to justify that.

Pete: You’ve been traumatized. 

Jared: Or just indoctrinated, you know?

Pete: Yeah, same thing. Yeah, I don’t know. For me though, I just, the, I, I, I do think in terms of trying to be a good world citizen, and you can do that—it’s sort of like church denominations. You can belong to a denomination without demonizing other denominations. It’s a similar kind of thing to me.

I’m Episcopalian, but I don’t think like there are, there are no recognized Christian denominations I look at and say that they’re, they’re bad. Right. You know, including the Southern Baptist. Because there are good people in the Southern Baptist movement. So, um, I dunno why I picked on the Southern Baptists. I could’ve said Calvinists. The, the ones I don’t like, I still like, you know, that’s what I’m saying. Um, yeah, but I, I then the question is, you know, at what point does that tribe become your identity? Right, exactly. And, and, and it’s very hard. I admit it’s very hard to not let that happen.

We’re, we’re, we’re still tribal people. That’s probably part of our evolutionary process. We’re still thinking in terms of survival group think and things like that. So I get it, but I, I do think at the end of the day, my opinion is the gospel calls us not to keep being that tribalistic kind of person. And, but that’s a struggle. That’s not easy. 

Jared: Yeah. Which again, for me, not to bring it full circle, but I think that tribalism for me, it’s not, like you said, to belong to a denomination, to be American isn’t, that’s not the, that’s the risk. It’s not in itself the bad thing. It could be the gateway, but I feel like the, the characteristics that we wanna look out for is that power dynamic and the loyalty. Where do my loyalties lie and where is the power? 

Pete: Right. Oh, that’s the gift that keeps on giving. We’ll be talking about this for a long-

Jared: I know. I know. We gotta get more educated on it. 

Pete: We do. 

Jared: We gotta add more people on to talk about it. 

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Stephen: You’ve just made it through another episode of Faith for Normal People. Don’t forget you can catch our other show, The Bible for Normal People, in the same feed wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for Normal People team: Brittany Hodge, Joel Limbauan, Melissa Yandow, Tessa Stultz, Danny Wong, Lauren O’Connell, and Naiomi Gonzalez.