Episode 113: James Martin - The Gift of Imagination in Reading Scripture

In this episode of The Bible for Normal People Podcast, Pete and Jared talk with James Martin about the Jesuit order, praying with the Bible, and the gift of imagination in biblical interpretation as they explore the following questions:

• What sets Jesuits apart from other Catholic orders?
• Is there a difference between how Jesuits view the Bible and how other Catholics view the Bible?
• How did the Jesuits get started?
• What are some ways one can pray with the Bible?
• Why is imagination important to bring into reading the Bible?
• What is Dei verbum?
• How does James Martin use the Bible in thinking about the issues we face today?
• What is Ignatian Contemplation?
• How can the Bible be God’s word but not be read literally?
• How does imagination help us develop empathy?
• Why do some people struggle to bring their imagination to biblical interpretation?

Tweetables

Pithy, shareable, less-than-280-character statements from James Martin you can share. 

“It’s the both/and. It’s scripture study, it’s listening to sermons, it’s being attentive to scripture scholars and its encountering [Scripture] on your own.” @JamesMartinSJ

“The more you know factually, I think the more it helps you imaginatively.” @JamesMartinSJ

“In fact, the beginning of the spiritual exercises is just that, it’s looking at your blessings, and then you’re overwhelmed by, you know, how much God loves you. And gradually, which I think is really beautiful, organically, you start to see your own shadow side.” @JamesMartinSJ

“Part of it is getting people in touch with God, not their conception of God, which are two different things.” @JamesMartinSJ

“There’s no real Jesuit way of interpreting the Bible, I think the distinctive Jesuit contribution is praying with the Bible.” @JamesMartinSJ

Mentioned in This Episode

• Book: Building a Bridge
• Book: The Jesuit Guide to (Almost) Anything
• Book: Between Heaven and Mirth
• Book: Jesus: A Pilgrimage
• Patreon: The Bible for Normal People

[bg_collapse view="link-inline" expand_text="Read the transcript" collapse_text="Hide the transcript" ]

[Introduction]
Pete:00:01	You’re listening to The Bible for Normal People. Theonly God- ordained podcast on the internet. Serious talk about the sacredbook. I’m Pete Enns.
Jared:	And I’m Jared Byas.
[Jaunty Intro Music]
[Beginning of recorded material]
Jared:	Welcome everyone to this first episodeof the fourth season of the Bible for Normal People.
[Audible group cheering]
Pete:	Woot, woot.
Jared:	Did you miss us? I hope so.
Pete:	Are you talking to me?
Jared:	We miss us. [Laughter]
Pete:	I didn’t miss me at all. I’m tired ofme, actually. I need a break.
Jared:	Well, today, we are going to talk aboutthe gift of imagination in reading Scripture and we’re talking with FatherJim Martin.
Pete:	Yeah, Jim Martin, AKA, James Martin.
Jared:	You may know him as James Martin.
Pete:	But he’s, he’s pretty cool, so. Anyway, but, Jim has, ya know. A lotof you probably know really, a lot about him. He’s been all over the place, buthe’s written a bunch of books. Some of them I’ve read, he’s written quite afew, but, uh, The Jesuit Guide for Almost Everything, which was areally cool book, and then Between Heaven and Mirth, and it’s about joyand humor and laughter as sort of foundational to Christian life which is notsomething you hear all the time and it’s pretty funny.
Jared:	His most recent book is Building a Bridge:How the Catholic Church and the LGBT Community Can Enter Into a Relationshipof Respect, Compassion, and Sensitivity, so that just came out a fewyears ago.
Pete:	Yeah, and he’s got another one coming out in a year or somethinglike that.
Jared:	Right, and he let us know that he met with the Pope --
Pete:	Yes!!!
Jared:	-- four months ago.
Pete:	Yes, and he said we should have him on as a guest.
Jared:	I could feel that. I could tell he did, cause I could still feel hehad a little bit of that vibe --
Pete:	That glow...
Jared:	The Pope Glow.
Pete:	The Pope glow, right?  [Chuckles] He also said he doesn't know English very wellso it’s not gonna happen. We can’t have him here, sorry.
Jared:	Mm hmm, sorry.
Pete:	But yeah, anyway. So, he’s also an editor for the Jesuit magazine – theeditor, right – for the Jesuit magazine, America, and ya know, heis, ya know buddies with Stephen Colbert. Not that we’re name dropping, butthat’s pretty cool, ya know. He’s been in that sort of stratosphere --
Jared	Yeah, he’s been able to bring, I think, a religious conversation tomore public spaces and I think that’s a really important thing to do as we--
Pete:	Mm hmm.
Jared:	Ya know, we had Jonathan Merritt on to talk about the importance ofkind of these religious words that are falling out of favor and we don’t knowwhat to do with and he has a platform to do that, so.
Pete:	Yeah, and his approach, ya know, we’ll let him speak for himself,but it’s, it was really, it’s familiar to me now, but only because of thingsthat I’ve had to pass through over the past 15-20 years. Where, there was atime in my life where I would’ve been sort of like, pushing this off andsaying that this isn’t right. But he says it in such a winsome, dare I sayspiritually mature way. Ya know, I think it’s so interesting just this giftof imagination. It’s not a problem to get over, it’s actually a gift that wehave for accessing Scripture and it was really a lot of fun to hear him tellBible stories from that point of view.
Jared:	Mm hmm. Alright, well, let’s get into thisconversation with Jim Martin.
[Upbeat transition music plays in background]
Jim:	But you know, our imagination is a gift thatGod gives us. Even when Jesus is recounting a parable, he’s asking people tokind of imagine themselves in the story. We have to remind ourselves that theseare written by four different people or four different editors who put theirstories together four different times in four different communities Thatdoesn’t mean they’re false, it just doesn’t mean that ya know, you can takethese things literally.
[End of transition music]
Jared:	Well, welcome Jim to this episode of The Bible for Normal People.
Jim:	My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.
Jared:	We have a whole host of things we are so eager to talk to you abouttoday, but let’s start with just a little bit of your spiritual biography. Wedon’t often get a chance to sit and talk with someone who is part of theJesuit order, so how does one come to that decision in their life?
Jim:	Well, it’s a long and winding road to quote the Beatles, I guess. Igrew up in a Catholic family, but not super religious. Didn't go to Catholicschools, didn’t go to a Catholic high school or a Catholic college. Went tothe University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School of Business, worked forGeneral Electric for six years, this is back in the 80’s. And then I startedto feel dissatisfied and sort of wanted something more, something else, and Istumbled upon the writings of Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk, and that justreally opened up my eyes to just a new way of living and, uh, eventuallysomeone put me in touch with the Jesuits. They’re a Catholic men’s religiousorder. We take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. We live in community.We do all sorts of different kinds of work. We’re probably most known in theStates for our colleges and universities and high schools. You know, Georgetown,Boston College, Florida, Loyola, Chicago, and on and on and on. And yeah, Ileft the corporate world in 1988 and never looked back. So, it’s been agreat, I don’t know, I hope it’s continuing. It’s been a great road.
Pete:	Right. Well, you mentioned the Jesuits. Tell us a little bit moreabout what Jesuits are about. Maybe eventually focusing on how they approachthe Bible and, this is a lot to ask, but also maybe comparing briefly withother orders, because, ya know, Catholicism is something that maybe some of ourlisteners just aren’t that familiar with.
Jim:05:04	Yeah, that’s kinda complicated. I mean, within the Catholic church,there are what are called religious orders or religious communities. And mostpeople know them by name. They know the Jesuits or the Dominicans or the Benedictinesor the Franciscans, and it's basically groups of people who live together.Again, they profess those vows – poverty, chastity, and obedience. They’restill Catholic, obviously. There’s priests and brothers and sisters and they usuallyhave a distinctive, what we call, charism or spirit. So, for the Franciscans,what are they known for? They’re known for their love of poverty, right? Dominicansare known for preaching and teaching, and not every Dominican preaches andteaches, but that’s kind of their foundation. The Jesuits are founded in, ohmy gosh, it just slipped my mind, how terrible. [Laughter]
Pete:	[Laughter]
Jim:	The Jesuits are founded in 1540, um, by Ignatius who was born in1491. That’s where I got confused. He was a Spanish former knight and he hada conversion experience and his idea was, um, you know, basically to drawpeople together to help, as he said, help souls. So, it’s very general, openkind of spirituality. You know, we’re all over the world now. I think there’s,gosh, 15,000 of us at this point. And we do all sorts of things, ourspirituality can be summed up I think in the words “finding God in allthings”. And so, you can have Jesuit professors, Jesuit priests, a friend ofmine is the Catholic chaplain at San Quentin prison in California. There areJesuit writers, I worked with refugees in East Africa for a while. So, youknow, we’re all over the place and as the saying goes, “If you’ve met oneJesuit, you’ve met one Jesuit.”
Pete:	[Laughter]
Jared:	So, to take that a step further, in particular, like, within theJesuit order - how would the Bible have been esteemed, how would it have beenapproached, are there ways of reading it and interpreting it that would bemaybe universally Catholic in some senses but maybe unique to the Jesuitorder in others?
Jim:	Yeah, well, that’s a great question. It’s important to say that, you know, the Jesuit way of looking at the Bible is the Catholic way of looking at the Bible and it’s hard to sum up, but there’s a great document, which, I doubt people are gonna go and read now - it’s called Dei verbum from the second Vatican council in the 1960’s. You know, and basically, it’s, we’re not fundamentalists, we’re not literalists and so we read it with an intelligent eye. But, ya know, we see it as the inspired word of God, you know, as all Catholics do. But again, we’re not literalists. We’re not fundamentalists, and in fact, I don’t think you can be because, I mean, there are so many differences and, for example, in the Gospels, you know, just in terms of what Jesus said and what Jesus did. It’s the inspired word of God. It’s the way that God, one of the primary ways that God communicates with us. There’s no real Jesuit way of interpreting the Bible, I think the distinctive Jesuit contribution is praying with the Bible. Praying with Scripture. Praying with the gospel passages. That’s what Jesuits are most known for. I mean there are a lot of Jesuit Biblical scholars. I mean, some great, you know - Joseph Fitzmyer, and Cardinal Martini and Daniel Harrington - I mean, there’s tons of New Testament and Old Testament scholars, but we’re known less for that, um, in general, and more for our way of inviting people to pray with Scripture.
Pete:	Yeah, and you mentioned Dei verbum? Explain what that is.
Jim:	Yeah, so in the 1960’s there was somethingcalled the Second Vatican Council, also called Vatican II, and it was agathering of, uh, boy, uh, cardinals, archbishops, and bishops from, ya know,all around the world. Pretty much the entire church, convened by Pope JohnXXIII, who was Pope, who was elected in 1958. We’re talking about the early60’s now. And basically, what he wanted to do was, you know, in his words,sort of update or open the windows a little bit to what had become kind of astuffy way of looking at things. And one of the things we looked at, thechurch looked at, among other things, ya know, for example - our relationshipto other religions and religious liberty, the church itself - was Scripture.And they wrote a beautiful document called Dei verbum, you know, theword of God - inviting Catholics to sort of rediscover the treasures of Scripture.I mean, I think, as you know, Protestants were much more associated withunderstanding the Bible. I’ll tell you, may I tell you a funny story quickly?
Jared:	Mm hmm.
Pete:	Yeah!
Jim:	My new Testament professor, who I’ve already mentioned, FatherDaniel Harrington, just this tremendous Scripture/New Testament professor, and,you know, just amazing and very influential on the Jesuits and a prolificwriter. He told this story of growing up as a boy, in an Irish Catholicfamily in Boston, and a Bible salesman came to do the door, right? So, Dan isabout seven years old and his Irish Catholic mother opens the door and says,you know, we’re selling Bibles and his mother says, “we’re Catholic, we don’tread the Bible” and shut the door in his face. [Laughter]
Pete:10:07	[Laughter]
Jim:	This is Dan Harrington’s mother. So that’s basically the attitudethat Dei verbum was sort of battling. There were a lot of documentsbefore that, but, it was a real invitation for Catholics to, ya know, rediscoverthe Bible, right, as part of their heritage and, which sounds like a funnything to say now, but, you know, there’s still a sort of lag, I think, amongCatholics in terms of their understanding of the Bible.
Jared:	So, in that document, I want to maybe kind of diginto some specifics. So, in the Dei verbum, there’s this languagewhich I think, actually, could tie us Protestants and Catholics together.John Calvin maybe mentioned something similar in his institutes about Godlisping to His children in the Bible. And there’s this section that talksabout, you know, while the truth and holiness of God always remains intact,the marvelous condescension of eternal wisdom is clearly shown. And then ittalks about that God has adapted His language with thoughtful concern for ourweak human nature. And, so, I’m just curious, when it comes to like, modernday issues, you know, you talk about the Bible as God’s word but not literal.I think for a lot of our listeners and for me growing up, that would havebeen kind of a contradiction. Like, OK, how could it be God’s word if it’snot, if we don’t read it in this way? Because I was kind of taught that thosego together. So, when it comes today as we think about the Bible as anethical guide or a moral guide, I mean maybe that’s not even the rightcategory to put the Bible in. But how do you see this idea that we find herein the Dei verbum about God sort of being kind enough to accommodateor adapt Himself to our weakness. How does that work in, you know, basically,how do you use the Bible today as you’re thinking about the issues that weface?
Jim:	Well, those are all good questions, and what Imeant by, you know, not taking it literally is not that it’s not true, or notthat it doesn’t...lets focus on the Gospels for example. You know, the Gospelstell the story of the, you know, the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, right,who is the center of my life. But they differ on, you know, specifics as weknow. Right? I mean, there are attempts to harmonize the Gospels, but, youknow, for example, the infancy narratives, which we’re thinking of aroundChristmas time, right? In Matthew and Luke, they don’t match up totally. Theyjust don’t, right? They’re told in slightly different ways; they diverge alittle bit. And then in Mark and in John there are no infancy narratives.Now, what does that mean? You know, it simply means that we have to remindourselves that these are written by, you know, four different people or fourdifferent editors who put their stories together in four different times infour different communities. That doesn’t mean they’re false, it just doesn’tmean that, you know, you can take these things literally. You know, they aresimply put, discrepancies among the Gospels, right? What did Jesus say in hisSermon on the Mount? Did He say, “blessed are the poor,” or “blessed are thepoor in spirit,” right? So, so that’s the point. You have to sort of look atthese things with a, with a sort of an intelligent eye. And, you know, He’squoted differently in different Gospels, He says different things from thecross, and, so yeah, it’s not dismissing it, but it’s also looking carefullyat what biblical scholars tell us about, for example, how these books wereput together, right?
Pete:	Mm hmm.
Jim:	One of my favorite examples, it’s a very smallexample, is, you know, when Jesus heals the man in Capernaum who is loweredthrough the roof, right? You remember that story?
Pete:	Yeah.
Jim:	In Mark it said, they unroofed the roof, right? Mark’s the earliest gospel.In Luke, they said they took off the roof tiles. OK, now, which is it? Youcan’t read that literally. I mean, they either ripped off the thatch roof, orthey took off the roof tiles. Well, if you know a little bit about Luke beingwritten later, and him writing for a little bit more of a citified audience,you know, a little bit more of a sophisticated audience, he put that in. Heput that detail in. That doesn’t mean the story never happened, but it doesmean that, you know, there are discrepancies that we have to look at. Sothat’s what I mean about not taking it literally and not being upset when yousee that, you know, I think it’s Mark and Luke, you know, do that a littledifferently. That’s the point.
Pete:	Okay.
Jim:	You don’t get upset. You can still see it as atrue story, and more importantly, you know, a story that conveys a muchdeeper meaning than what the roof looked like.
Pete:	Right. Well, let me fold something in here talking about the Deiverbum and now we’re looking at the birth narratives and how they differ.To fold into that historical criticism of it, and maybe what the Deiverbum has said about historical criticism, but specifically, you know,with the birth narratives, because, you know, they are quite different. Youhave the slaughter of the innocence, but only in one, right? And you have theflight, you know, to and from Egypt in one, not the other. And you have theangels appearing in one, and not the other. And that raises the question asyou know, well, what happened? Or did both of these, do we mesh themtogether, or is there room in, let's say a Jesuit or Catholic spirituality ofScripture, if we can put it that way, well listen, some of these things maybe constructed by the authors of these Gospels, and maybe need not behistorical. And I ask that because, you know, Like Jared said before, a lot ofProtestants coming from more conservative backgrounds, that’s something thatthey face all the time and they feel they need to maybe take a step away fromthe way they were raised to think about this text. What’s your opinion on allthat I just said? [Chuckles]
Jim:15:44	Yeah, that’s a very profound question and I don’t want to saysomething like, “well, it’s all a myth” or “it doesn’t really matter, whatmatters is that we believe in something.” No, I mean, I believe that those storiestell the truth about how Jesus was born, but, however, they differ becausethey are four different people telling the stories and they stress certainthings and others don’t stress certain things, and in fact, as you know, Johndoesn’t have those infancy narratives, or Mark, at all. You know, I’ve beensaying to people look, if I were telling this story about this podcast, okay,and I told my experience of this story - let’s say someone else told theexperience of the story of the podcast story starting up. Another person hadan experience of listening to the podcast, and then another, maybe yourparents or something, wrote a book about how the podcast affected them. Theyare going to stress things and leave things out and highlight things andmaybe even embellish things that another person won’t, right? That doesn’tmean that their stories are wrong, it just means that they’re telling it froma different point of view, right? Now, I do think that there are probablysome elements of the infancy narratives that were probably added on, right? Imean, it’s very hard to tell which ones, right? I mean, did the wisemenactually bring gold, frankincense, and myrrh, or are those symbolic? It’svery hard to know. If I get up to heaven, I’ve always said this, if I get upto heaven and Jesus said to me, “you know what? It happened exactly like itwas in the Gospels where there was gold, frankincense, and myrrh”. I’ll say“fine.” If Jesus says, “you know what, there were wisemen. It wasn’t quitelike that. The gold, frankincense and myrrh were added later by thegospelers.” I’ll say, “fine.” All right? I mean, frankly, if Jesus saysanything to me, I’ll say, “fine.”
Jared:	[Laughter]
Pete:	[Laughter] Right?
Jim:	But that’s the point. I mean, not to get so bogged down in thespecifics, right, but to take this story as a whole, right? I mean, I believethis story happened more or less as it was written, right, in the infancy narratives.But again, if one of those elements, ya know, falls out, and it’s found outto be a later addition, right? It doesn’t destroy my faith in, ya know, inthe birth of Jesus.
Jared:	Well, and maybe to go off of that a little bit with something yousaid earlier, you talked about the deeper meaning. Like, so maybe don’t worryso much about that particular question of what exactly happened, becausethere’s not necessarily a lot of practical import based on that, but lookingfor that deeper meaning. I wanted to tie that in with, maybe to what you saidabout praying with the Bible, and a particular Jesuit distinctive. So, what,can you say more about that, what does that mean, and what are kind of thepractical implications of that practice?
Jim:	Yeah, but let me respond a little bit to what you just said, becauseI think it’s an important point. I do think that there’s a danger, I knowyou’re not saying this, there’s a danger in saying, “well, the deeper meaningis that just Jesus was born.” Which, ya know, that’s an important meaningobviously, that’s the incarnation, that’s very important. I mean, I do thinkthat those stories deserve real attention, and the story, ya know, for example,of Jesus being born to a poor family on the run, ya know, in occupiedterritory, who then have to take their child to Egypt, you know, isessentially a refugee. That is, the specifics of the story are important aswell. So, ya know, the reader, at least in the Catholic tradition, shouldcome to the Gospels and come to the Bible itself, you know, with a sense ofwanting to meet God there, with a sense of kind of intelligence. But also, Ithink with a sense of trust and a sense of generosity, as one of my teachersused to say, you know, to the Gospels and to the story, so. But anyway, I’msorry. Can you repeat that second question you had?
Jared:	Yeah, it was just, you know, when you had mentioned praying with theBible, if you could just say a little bit more. Because, I agree, I think thedetails, you know. I just think with our background with seminary andgraduate school, and Pete and his professorship, I think we are emphasizing alot that these things matter. The discrepancies matter, the details matter,it all matters, but there’s also this sense where we also wanna say, there’sthis other element of spiritual practice. And so, can you talk about prayingwith the Bible, what do you mean by that and what’s the practicalimplications of it?
Jim:19:58	Sure, it’s a very, I would say, specificpractice that the Jesuits are known for. We’re not the ones that invented it,we like to take credit for it, but we did not invent it. I would say that itwas popularized by Saint Ignatius who was the founder of the Jesuits. It’sessentially, you can call it Ignatian Contemplation, or composition of place,or imaginative prayer, and it’s essentially imagining yourself in the Gospelscene in your prayer. Now, that sounds sort of simple and almost elementary,but it can be very profound. So, for example, let’s take the infancynarrative since we’re talking about that. If you take, for example, you know,the story of Jesus’ birth in the Gospel of Luke. So, let’s start with the annunciation,right? You would imagine yourself in that scene. You would close your eyesand say, all right, what do I see? Okay, now what does Mary look like in thisscene, where is she, what kind of a house is she in? When the angel appears,what does the angel look like in your imagination? Is it a traditional angelwith wings, is it a kind of beam of light, as you said, what is it? What doyou hear? You know, what does your voice sound like? What does the angelsound like? What do you smell, right? In some passages, that’s not going tobe very important, but you know, for example, if you’re at the wedding feastof Cana you’re going to smell a lot of food and wine and all that. What doyou taste? You know, what do you feel? I mean, what are you wearing? Ifyou’re in a miracle story, if you’re in the story of the man being healed in Capernaum,being lowered down the roof, you know, boy, what do you imagine? Just all thesights and the sounds and the visual. And then, you place yourself in thisscene and you pray with it and you see what happens. And let me tell you, itcan be extremely powerful for people, because it’s experiencing through yourimagination, which is a gift from God, alright? It’s a gift through yourimagination, this kind of entry into the Gospel passage, or more broadly intothe Bible. And it is a favorite way for Jesuits to pray and to encourageothers to pray, it can be really, and I have to say this, and this is notmeant as any sort of critique. It can be really eye opening for a lot ofProtestants who have not been invited into this way of praying.
Pete:	Sounds like a critique to me and that’s fine. [Laughter]
Jim:	Oh no! It’s not meant to be.
Pete:	[Laughter]
Jim:	You know, because, I think, you know, just as you might say thatCatholics have not, [Background music begins] many Catholics have not had the experience of, you know, beinginvited to learn the Bible, even read the Bible. I found that in myexperience, sometimes Protestants have not been invited to pray in thisparticular way, with the Scriptures.
Producer:	[ProducersGroup Endorsement]
Jim:	So, it’s really profound, and, you know, some pretty amazing thingscan happen in terms of insights, emotions, desires, memories, feelings – I'mwriting a book about this right now which is why it’s on the tip of mytongue.
Pete:	Mmm.
Jim:	So, for, can I give you an example?
Pete:	Yes, please.
Jared:	Sure.
Jim:	Well, let’s say you’re praying with the storm at sea, one of themany storms at sea and you imagine yourself in the Scripture reading, andyou’re one of the disciples. And, as we know, you know, it’s dark outside andthere’s a storm and the disciples are afraid, and they say to Jesus, youknow, “why are you asleep? Don't you care about us?” and He stands up andrebukes – I love that word rebukes – the storm and there’s a dead calm. Andthey say, “who is this then that even the wind and waves obey Him?” So very well-knownstory. Now, you know, it’s one thing to read it and to say, “okay, that’s Jesus’power over nature, that’s a nature miracle.” It’s another thing to hear asermon or a homily about it where someone tells you this is what this means,or this is an interpretation. It’s another thing to put yourself in there andsee what happens. And often times, for example, let's say you’re praying andyou, you start to feel, well what is wrong with Jesus? Why isn’t he helpingthe disciples, right? And I feel Jesus is asleep in my life. And you start tofeel a little sadness or disappointment over something that is happening inyour life where Jesus feels asleep, right? And you might be moved in thatprayer to talk to Jesus about it. What’s he going to say to you in yourprayer? So, it can be really powerful for people. That’s a very popularpassage on retreats for people. It can be very powerful for people to talk toJesus and say, you know, “do you care about us, do you care about me?” Andthen also to listen to Jesus, if you’re able to do this in your prayer,what’s Jesus’ response to you? You know, so, it kind of makes this story yourown in a way that simply reading it or, you know, having someone preach aboutit, or even reading about it does not. And, doesn’t happen all the time, butit can be really transformative. I mean, I’ve had experiences in prayer thathave kind of changed my life in that particular way of praying. So that’s the,that’s Ignatian Contemplation, that’s our Jesuit way of praying, and I thinkthat’s our great gift to the world. It’s not, you know, all theseuniversities with great basketball teams, it’s this.
Pete:26:07	[Laughter]
Jared:	Well, it’s a very interesting way ofapproaching what would have often, at least, you know, in my background, beenthis importance on the relevancy of the Bible to our life. So we’re alwayskind of trying to apply the Bible to our life, and when it’s kind of sermonstyle or reading it on our own, we tend to kind of piecemeal it, and we haveas the backdrop and the framework, our life, and then we’re just takingpieces of the Bible, or pieces of these stories to fit. And this kind ofturns that it on its head where it’s this immersive and a wholisticexperience of placing our self in that world and exploring it. So, it’s sortof, it’s still relevant. It’s more that we’re applying ourselves to theBible, rather than the Bible applying to our life, and I really appreciatethat.
Jim:	That’s right! And it’s also allowing the Holy Spirit to work withinyou, and to let God guide you, and it’s, you know, for some people it can bevery frightening, all right? Because they’re sort of untethered to, you know,someone on the outside telling them what should happen, right? Like, this iswhat you should feel. I mean, I’ll tell you an interesting story. I was onthe radio show of Cardinal Dolan, who is the Archbishop of New York here acouple of years ago, and we were talking about this topic, and he had gone ona retreat with some Jesuits, and they invited him, funny enough, to prayabout the nativity scene. And, you know, he imagined himself in the stable. It’sa very common prayer practice, and it’s a very common passage to use, and inhis prayer, he imagined Mary giving him the baby, asking him to hold thebaby, you know, the Christ-child. And, it was just a surprise to him, becausehe was expecting to simply look at what was happening, right? But in a lot ofthese imaginative prayers, what happens is you’re sort of drawn into it. Andhe basically held Jesus, you know, for the prayer. And I said to him, I sortof, you know, chanced some spiritual direction, and I said to him, “well Ibet the next time that you read the infancy narrative, it wasn’t the same.”He said, “no, absolutely not, it was totally different for me.” Because nowit was his story, all right?
Pete:	Mm hmm.
Jim:	It was his experience of the story and it’s, I can’t describe it,it’s just different. It’s the difference between, it’s the difference betweensomeone telling you what it’s like to swim in the ocean, and reading a bookabout it, and watching a video about it, and jumping in the ocean. That’s thedifference.
Pete:	Yeah, you know, I mean, what you’re saying - some pieces are comingtogether for me here and the question that I’m trying to articulate. But,just to contrast this with, again, the way I was trained, the way Jared wastrained, the way I think many Protestants have been taught; I think whatother evangelical or maybe mainline, I don’t know if it makes much of adifference, but, you know, the basis for scriptural reading is, what somecall the grammatical historical method. You read the words and you understandthe history, sort of in a detached sense, and on the basis of that, youunderstand the text and then you understand God. And you sort of, it, whatyou’re suggesting, there’s more of a spiritual immediacy in reading of Scripture,because in a way, and I mean this in a very positive way, you’re bypassingthe critical mind, you’re maybe putting the left brain on pause for a minute,and intuitively and emotionally engaging the text.
Jim:29:39	Absolutely! I mean, what you’re talking about,which is part of, you know, our spiritual lives, is mainly insight, which isvery important. And so, you can get it, even in this practice, in IgnatianContemplation, you can get an insight. So, one of the common insights about,say, the storm at sea is, I’m not surprised that the disciples were afraid.You know, if you see Jesus in your mind's eye as stilling the storm, you say,oh my gosh, that must’ve been really frightening, and you get an insight. Wow,I never thought of the disciples really being afraid of this guy that theywere following as well as loving Him. So that’s great, but by the same token,to your point, you can experience other things. So, for example, deep emotion,right? You can experience sadness that Jesus isn’t, you know, more active inyour life, or seemingly. You can experience anger, you can experience adesire to, say, in the infancy narrative to kind of care for people who arein childbirth. You can have memories that come up, right? You can even havewords and images that come up, so it is, it’s much more immersive, and it’snot, you know, I would say you do bring a critical eye to it as much as youknow, but you don’t have to be a Bible scholar to do this, right? I mean, youcan take it at face value.
Pete:	Right.
Jim:	You know, for example, sometimes people will do a meditation likethis and it will be in current day. So, I had a friend do a meditation onretreat, and when he did the storm at sea, he was in a boat that his Dad had. [Laughter]
Pete:	[Laughter]
Jim:	You know, with like, an outboard motor. And he said, “that’s justwhat came to me.” And that was fine. You know, that’s okay. You know, I mean,obviously Jesus and the disciples didn’t have outboard motors, but it’s okay.It’s sort of letting God work through your imagination. I want to say onemore quick thing. One of the critiques is, “well, it’s all in my head.” Well,that’s bologna. “It’s all in my head.” But, you know, our imagination is agift that God gives us, and, you know --
Pete:	Yeah, and that has been very important to me the past, I don’t know,decade or so. You know, and people like Walter Brueggemann or Richard Rohr,or others where the imagination is not your enemy. Which is how, I mean,that’s why I’m really attracted to that word, and I know Jared is too,because we know how people in our background would react to this. It’s --
Jared:	Well, the whole point of biblical studies was to bracket that out.
Pete:	Right, to get your imagination out of the way and just get to thefacts, what really happened, and not this more, again, immediate access to,like you said before, the Holy Spirit. But, you know, people say, well thisis just, it’s not just in your head, but it’s just subjective, and what youneed is objectivity if you want to really access scripture.
Jim:	Yeah to both/and. You can’t, I mean, to be blunt, you can’t be kindof an idiot when you come to Scripture.
Pete:	Oh, you’d be surprised Jim, I don’t know...
Jim:	[Laughter] No, but I mean, you know, you have to understand, you know, I mean, somethingsimple. That there are four Gospels, they were written by four differentpeople. Something, you know, as basic as that. There weren’t reporters there,right? They don’t, you know those kinds of sort of basic things. But, by thesame token, you don’t have to be, you know, a biblical scholar and know Greekand Hebrew to kind of pray with this stuff. I’m glad you like the imagination.You know, one of the things I like to remind people, is that Jesus askedpeople to do this. I mean, when he says “a sower went out to sow” in theparables, he’s saying, “imagine a sower going out to sow,” right?
Pete:	Mm hmm.
Jim:	Or, “imagine a man who had two sons.” As we understand, he’screating these stories, he’s not reporting them. And that’s what He’s doing,He’s kind of an – and truly it’s kind of what we do whenever we readscripture. It’s impossible to hear the passion proclaimed or read the passionand not imagine it. It’s happening already. And so, this is just deepening--
Pete:	Yeah, it’s not just for parables, it’s for anything that we access.New or Old Testament, really.
Jim:	Absolutely. But, I guess what I’m saying is, even when you hear it,a sermon, on the passion narrative, you’re imagining it. You’re imagining inyour mind's eye already what Jesus looked like on the cross.
Pete:	Mm hmm.
Jared:	Well, and even, and even to take that even further, I think one ofthe things that we could exercise more of in our spiritual lives is somethinglike - cause when you said Jesus invites this as well - a lot of thoseparables are also inviting something like empathy. And I would say empathy bydefinition requires imagination. And so, building those muscles outside ofjust our brain power to get to the facts, to being more holistic about whatit means to be human, which we are emotional beings as well, I think, is justa really, it’s a healthier way, I think, of looking at Scripture.
Jim:	Yeah, as I said, it’s the both/and. I mean,it’s Scripture study, it’s listening to sermons, it’s being attentive toScripture scholars, and it’s encountering it on your own.
Jared:	Exactly.
Jim:	Because, again, the Holy Spirit is working through you, and youknow, might as well pay attention to what the Holy Spirit is saying to you.
Jared:	And I would say too, it’s a dialectic in the sense that, I feel likefor me, the older I get, it’s a lifelong journey of letting those both informeach other. That, as I learn from biblical scholarship, that impacts how Iread it, maybe from a more spiritual perspective or a more imaginativeperspective. And yet, my imagination is always pushing on that scholarly sideas well. And I think that’s an important tension that we don’t want to lose.
Jim:35:17	Yeah, and frankly, I love reading – I know this sounds crazy butmaybe not to you guys – I love reading scripture commentaries and, you know,so the Sacra Pagina series and --
Pete:	Mm hmm.
Jim	John Meier’s Marginal Jew and you know, all those things, Ilove it. And it helps you understand, I hate to stay it, but the mise enscène and, you know, Jesus’ experience and what it was like in, you know,for a century Galilee in Judea. It just helps your prayer more, right? Imean, I’ve been to the holy land now five or six times, and it just helps, Imean, to understand, you know, what Capernaum looked like and, you know, whatBethsaida looked like, and where they were. These are real places, and so,it’s ironic, I mean, the more you know factually, I think the more it helpsyou imaginatively.
Pete:	Yeah, and that’s sort of gets to another question that’s in my mind,again, I'm thinking of the backgrounds we’ve had and what a lot of ourlisteners have had, that it’s hard to get to that place to allow for animaginative engagement of Scripture when you’ve been told for your whole lifethat this is, you’re a worm. And there’s nothing good in you, and yourimagination will simply lead you astray. But what I’m hearing you say, Jim,is that this is all just a part of being human, and you can’t escape it.
Jim:	Yes, I mean, one Jesuit way, I mean, theCatholic way of looking at things is a little different. It’s a both/and.Saint Ignatius says, which I love, “we are loved sinners.” Right? I mean, weare loved by God and redeemed by God, and we are also sinful. I mean, allthree of us are sinful people. But, you know, that doesn’t mean that we, youknow, can’t use our imaginations. I mean, we’re also, we’re, I mean, youknow, Saint Paul says it – we're temples of the Holy Spirit, right? And so,the Holy Spirit dwells within us. You know, one of the great lines in theSecond Vatican Council is, you know, in our conscience, in our spirit, youknow, it’s where one hears the echoes of God’s voice.
Pete:	Yeah.
Jim:	You know, and the other thing is that it's Godin charge, it’s not us in charge. It’s not me making something up anyway,it’s being led to the Gospels and, you know, to the Bible, and more broadly,by God who wants to show us something, and frankly, sometimes he shows ussomething about our sinfulness.
Pete:	Mm hmm.
Jim:	I mean, if you’re praying about the infancy narratives and you see Maryand Joseph and you realize - oh my gosh, they’re refugees - how am I treatingrefugees? You know, so it’s not always comforting, it can be verychallenging.
Pete:	You’re hitting on something now too, Jim, that I think, that’s meanta lot to me and I think to others that I know as well. Sort of transitioningto different ways of thinking. This really isn’t ultimately about what youthink of the Bible and how it should be read, I think really at the end ofthe day it comes down to what you think God is like and whether God is onyour side leading you somewhere, or whether, and this is a bit of a caricaturebut I’ll stand by it, whether God is more, sort of off in a distance lookingdown as sort of a judge waiting to see if you’re going to get the Bible rightor not. That’s a common malady that, I mean, I see that in students that Iteach at the undergraduate level, when I taught seminary, and this is allwrapped up, you really can’t talk about, let’s say, an imaginative reding ofthe Bible without a God behind it who values the human experience, and that’sa foreign language for a lot of people.
Jim:	Well that’s interesting, because I would say that’skind of surprising that God would not value the human experience since God becamehuman.
Jared:	[Laughter] You’d think!
Pete:	You’d think! [Laughter] That’s just one time though. That’s one time, Jim, that’s all thatis. [Laughter continues]
Jim:	Well, but, you know, I mean, He’s still, youknow, Christ is risen, right? I mean, so, He’s, in a way, you know, He’sstill human, He’s still experiencing that humanity. No, that is true, I dothink that it does depend on an experience of God in one’s own life that isgracious and that is loving and, you know, for people that find thatdifficult, what we normally do in the Jesuits is to try to get them in touchwith that.
Pete:	Mmm.
Jim:	So often in the beginning of a retreat, we just say, “take a fewdays just to pray about the way that God has blessed you.” In fact, thebeginning of the spiritual exercises is just that, it’s looking at yourblessings, and then you’re overwhelmed by, you know, how much God loves you. Andgradually, which I think is really beautiful, organically, you start to seeyour own shadow side. As a Jesuit friend of mine likes to say, I love thisexpression, “in the sunshine of God’s love we see our shadows.”
Pete:	Mmm.
Jim:	And so, what happens? What happens is, in my experience, people endup seeing themselves as what we said again, loved sinners. So, it’s both/and.God loves you, you’re, you know, you’re imperfect, but God loves you, God’s blessedyou in all these things. And so, that sort of sets the stage for this abilityto relate to God and to trust in God. I mean, I, you know, I always go backto, if we’re going to talk about, you know, quoting scripture. I always goback to Jeremiah 29:11, you know, “I know the plans I have for you.” Plansfor your welfare and for peace and, you know, God’s on your side. I’m also,look, how can we doubt that God’s on humanities side? I mean, Jesus comesdown, He aligns himself with us, He dies for us on the cross. I mean, whatmore does God have to do to prove that?
Pete:40:34	Mm hmm, yeah.
Jared:	Yeah, and it seems like, again, it’s anotherone of those dialectics where we can’t lose either side. That we are loved,and that we are imperfect. And I think it’s more that we tend to have a hardtime feeling capable of being loved, or belonging, when we’re imperfect. Butthat’s, I think, part of what the Gospel is saying. You know, kind of, “whilewe were yet sinners, Christ died for you.” It’s while we are imperfect, wecan still be loveable, and I think that’s a powerful thing.
Jim:	Yeah, and one of the problems is that most people, as I said, I’mwriting a book about this. You know, most people tend to think of God, asthey think of, for example, their parents or some authority figure, you know,who may or may not have loved them unconditionally, right? And so, if we hadparents who are very judgmental or church leaders that are very judgmental,we tend to see that as God. But, you know, as Christ shows us over and overagain in the Gospels, you know, that’s not who God is, right? It’s just, that’s,I always say to people, you know, let's say your name is, you know, Joe. Iwould say, “that’s Joe’s god.” Right? That’s your god that you’ve constructed,right?  That is not the God that wefind in Jesus.” Right? I mean, He’s always forgiving, always loving. And so,part of it is getting people in touch with God, not their conception of God,which are two different things. Sometimes, I say to people, “that’s like anidol.” You know, you, everyone says, oh I don’t know the first commandment...oh,who would believe in idols, that’s crazy. But if you’ve created this kind of,false god, based on just your experience, you’ve kind of created an idol.
Jared:	Good. Well, I think that’s a great way to wrap up our conversations.Unfortunately, we’re coming to the end of our time, but I like the idea ofending on the notion that God is loving and we see that in Jesus. What areother things, maybe projects, you’ve mentioned a few times this book you’reworking on. Is it coming out any time soon, can you give us more info on itor point us in a direction to kind of learn more about you or your work?
Jim:	Yeah, no time soon, it’s called Learning to Pray, probably inanother year. But, if you want to learn more about me, Father James Martin, Ihave, I’m on Facebook under Father James Martin, on Twitter under @JamesMartinSJ,on Instagram. Probably the book that most listeners would, I hope, appreciatethe most, is a book called Jesus: A Pilgrimage, which is a look at thelife of Christ, as well as a visit to the holy land and some Scripturescholarship as well. I hope that listeners would enjoy that.
Pete:	Well right, Jim, well thanks so much for beingon the podcast. We had a great time, thanks for spending time with us.
Jim:	Me too, great questions too.
Pete:	All right, thanks so much, see you soon.
Jared:	See ya.
Jim:	God bless.
[Outro music begins]
Pete:	Hey normal people, thanks for listening and, welcome back to thepodcast. We’re happy to be here too.
Jared:	Yeah, absolutely. And, if you haven’t alreadychecked out Patreon, we would  appreciate your support, but also, we hadsome special things that we put up there during the break for those of ourPatreon supporters who couldn’t get enough of us. I mean --
Pete:	[Laughter]
Jared:	I know that’s probably --
Pete:	So not our wives and our families, right?
Jared:43:30	[Laughter] That’s right. So, if you want to check that out you can. Go to https://www.patreon.com/thebiblefornormalpeople/posts, andit’s great to be able to say we’ll see you next week!
[Music continues]
[End of recorded material]

[/bg_collapse]